quote:

Originally posted by DSgrouse:
I am down from 270 to 238 this morning. I have done the no sugar, the atkins with good results but temporary.

Now it is about portion size and calorie control.

The difference is amazing

Yep, counting calories has been best for me. I lost 150lbs a couple years ago and kept it off with calorie discipline and exercise. I can eat anything I want, but have to plan for it.

esdunbar,

thanks for the info and advice. I will re-read your post and look into those books. My head is kind of spinning on wich way to proceed. I have done atkins before and the last time 6 years ago I did calorie counting with an emphasis on higher protien meals and snacks. I was working out 2-4 hours a day and was in the best shape of my life. My main fault was not increasing food and slowing down my exercise routine for something more realistic.

There is more than one way to skin a cat. My wife is doing keto. A good friend is doing the carnivore diet. That just doesnt seem like a good idea to me.

My last physical was 2 years ago and my cholsetrol was 220 i think. this week it was 160. Blood sugar was 110. HR 130/80. He ordered thyroid, testosterone and vitamin levels. So hopefully I figure out whats wrong with me. Also waiting on my A1C. But that was good 3 months ago.

^^^^^^^^

None of those numbers is extreme. Are you having some symptoms that make you think something is wrong?

Interesting discussion and timely for me. I’ve lost 30 pounds in the last 3.5 months doing a fairly strict low carb diet without any real exercise. I skip breakfast and eat 2 smaller meals while not worrying about the fat intake. It’s hard at first, but once you get your body into ketosis for a while, your appetite goes away and allows you to continue. If I splurge, then I may skip a meal with a mini fast. Weighing daily and seeing the progress helps you stick with it, and setting goals is helpful too. Overall, I feel much better and think I can stick with this long term just to maintain that feeling plus looking better to boot. It just takes commitment and discipline, but the benefits have been worth it for me so far. I just got tired of where I was at and had to do something. This approach gave the quick results that I needed to get my mind right to stick with it. Good luck guys!

quote:

Originally posted by MNSIG:
^^^^^^^^

None of those numbers is extreme. Are you having some symptoms that make you think something is wrong?

Just fatigue that is every day. I am waiting to get his letter and see how all my levels are!!

The main thing that helped me in all of this is realizing that it's not linear or simple.

How commonly do you hear, "how'd you loose the weight?" and "how are you keeping it off?"

Folks want a simple answer. They want to eat one thing or avoid one thing and manage their weight. It's really not that simple. It's like squeezing a water ballon. One part goes down, but another part goes up.

Alone, nothing will work long term. Calorie restriction, carb restriction, exercise, Paleo, fasting...there is no magic to this.

I recommend really educating yourself so that you understand how the choices you make do and don't affect your body. That's when you're making choices that keep you healthy. Without really understanding it, you're basically throwing hope at buzzwords and stuff you've heard or think you know in a hopeless attempt at being healthy.

For example, this one blew my mind. If you take the ovaries out of a female mouse, she will eat a lot and get super fat.

If you restrict that same mouses calories, she will still get super fat, the only difference is she will be lethargic and have no energy. Huh? How's that exactly? Super low calories and she's still getting fat?

This is in the weeds a bit, but what happens is that estrogen inhibits LPL's. LPL stuff calories into fat cells (very simplistic but you get the idea for the purpose I'm sharing this). So without the estrogen, that little mouses body is taking anything she eats and stuffing into fat cells.

So even though she's eating very little, everything is going to fat and she's lethargic. The reason she wants to eat voraciously is because she's looking for energy to move her body.

See, she's hungry because she's getting fat. Her energy is going to fat so she needs more to move. She's not getting fat because she's hungry or over eating.

If your body is doing something similar to that mouses', you don't stand a chance of getting into shape. you need to get your hormones right. Insulin is a hormone.

The body is triggered to store fat by a lot of different things. the easiest to understand and control is inulin, but there are more. Understanding what triggers these events is necessary to controlling your weight.

calories in vs calories out, "metabolism," fat free, low fat, low carb, any diet being sold, etc all fail long term because it is only attacking one part of a complicated puzzle.

For me, understanding the puzzle is what finally made me successful. People who easily lose weight or are naturally fit don't understand how complex it is for us folks who are or who have struggled with this.

IMO, they are the folks who say, just do (insert one thing here) and you'll be fit! Tune that shit out fellas. It ain't that easy, there is no magic bullet.

The only way to success, if this has been hard for you in the past, is to study up on how your body works. Eventually you start to see the forrest through the trees. You understand it on a macro level and you can control it.

The books I mentioned (I swear I'm not getting royalties on them ) get you started. then you can start to google stuff and watch videos that explain more. It's fascinating for me, I enjoy learning about how our bodies work. It's kind of fun once you get into it.

At least, that's the only thing that helped me.

quote:

Originally posted by esdunbar:
People who easily lose weight or are naturally fit don't understand how complex it is for us folks who are or who have struggled with this.

I question this as well, I think it is usually a copout. I bet if someone picked out a person they think loses weight “easy” or is “naturally fit” and followed them around for a month doing everything they do, eating exactly what they eat (and nothing they don’t) their body shape wouldn’t be a mystery.

Now, subjectively it might be “easy” for them, because that is their habit and lifestyle. It is no harder to order a steak salad instead of lasagna at a restaurant and no harder to get a workout in as to spend that time doing any other leisure activity you might choose.

quote:

Originally posted by Strambo:I question this as well, I think it is usually a copout. I bet if someone picked out a person they think loses weight “easy” or is “naturally fit” and followed them around for a month doing everything they do, eating exactly what they eat (and nothing they don’t) their body shape wouldn’t be a mystery.

Well, kind of.

Certainly a lot of people use it as an excuse, but I do believe an experiment similar to what you propose has been done. When placed on a reduced calorie diet, some individuals'(the heavier ones) metabolism adjusted much more aggressively than others and resulted in less weight loss. If I recall, the experiment was done in a prison, so the caloric intake really was monitored, not self reported.

quote:

Originally posted by StorminNormin:
I ordered the book “The Obesity Code” as I am interested in what it says.

I just got the book and haven’t gotten too far yet as I am not a book reader, but so far I really like it. I can’t wait to finish it. This is the first nutrition/diet/weight loss book I have ever read so my impression may have no weight as there may be better info out there.

quote:

Originally posted by MNSIG

Well, kind of.

Certainly a lot of people use it as an excuse, but I do believe an experiment similar to what you propose has been done. When placed on a reduced calorie diet, some individuals'(the heavier ones) metabolism adjusted much more aggressively than others and resulted in less weight loss. If I recall, the experiment was done in a prison, so the caloric intake really was monitored, not self reported.

What I was saying wasn’t a reduced calorie “diet” though, simply mirror a “naturally fit” person doing everything they do, eating everything they eat and their body composition probably won’t be a mystery.

I wonder if people think it is easy for me or if I’m “naturally fit”. I’ve worked at it all my life and big surprise if I let my nutrition and exercise lapse I put on weight and start to feel worse just like everyone else...

The Obesity Code: Unlocking the Secrets of Weight Loss by Jason Fung 4-18-2016

How to Reverse Type 2 Diabetes Naturally 12-10-2013

The Two Big Lies of Type 2 Diabetes 12-7-2014

6 part video:

The Aetiology of Obesity Part 1 of 6: A New Hope 3-01-2013

The Aetiology of Obesity Part 2 of 6: The New Science of Diabesity 5-17-2013

The Aetiology of Obesity Part 3 of 6: Trial by Diet 5-14-2013

The Aetiology of Obesity Part 4 of 6: The Fast Solution 6-12-2013

The Aetiology of Obesity Part 5 of 6: Diet and Disease 7-10-2013

The Aetiology of Obesity Part 6 of 6: Dietary Villains - Fat Phobia 8-15-2013


Dr. Fung - the calorie decption 7-8-2016

books:

The New Atkins for a New You: The Ultimate Diet for Shedding Weight and Feeling Great, Eric C. Westman, Stephen D. Phinney, Jeff S. Volek (2010) ***

Good Calories, Bad Calories: Challenging the Conventional Wisdom on Diet, Weight Control, and Disease by Gary Taubes (2004) ***

Why We Get Fat: And What to Do About It, Gary Taubes (2010) ***

The Case Against Sugar, Gary Taubes (2016)

The Big Fat Surprise, Nina Teicholz (2014)

The Complete Guide to Fasting, Jason Fung, Jimmy Moore (2016) ***

The Diabetes Code: prevent and reverse type 2 diabetes naturally, Jason Fung (2018)

The Obesity Code: Unlocking the Secrets of Weight Loss, Jason Fung (2016)

*** essential

Yes, we react to food differently. Not everyone produces the same amount of insulin when eating the same food.

We all know that person who eats like total garbage but have no fat.

That being said, that doesn’t mean we can use it as an excuse to be fat. It may be easier for some, but that doesn’t mean it’s hard or impossible for others.

Easier is relative and proven. But no one should be fat unless they have a medical condition causing them to be.

“Slow metabolism” and the like are purely excuses. I might have to cheat a little less than another guy, but there’s no reason we both can’t be fit.

I haven’t watch those Dr. Fung vids f2. Thanks for posting them. I’ve read every book you listed. Just finished why we get fat over the 4th and liked it.

quote:

Originally posted by esdunbar:
I haven’t watch those Dr. Fung vids f2. Thanks for posting them. I’ve read every book you listed. Just finished why we get fat over the 4th and liked it.

The videos are gold. Gary Taubes' Why We Get Fat: And What to Do About It started me on LC back in late March. I literally stopped all sugar, processed flour, while I was still reading it - then got me a copy of the 2002 DANDR (Dr. Atkins' New Diet Revolution), which originally came out in 1973. LC (low carb) + intermittent fasting (IF) is the shit.

from health.harvard.edu/blog/

Intermittent fasting: Surprising update 6-29-2018

...Based on this, researchers from the University of Alabama conducted a study with a small group of obese men with prediabetes. They compared a form of intermittent fasting called “early time-restricted feeding,” where all meals were fit into an early eight-hour period of the day (7 am to 3 pm), or spread out over 12 hours (between 7 am and 7 pm). Both groups maintained their weight (did not gain or lose) but after five weeks, the eight-hours group had dramatically lower insulin levels and significantly improved insulin sensitivity, as well as significantly lower blood pressure. The best part? The eight-hours group also had significantly decreased appetite. They weren’t starving.

Just changing the timing of meals, by eating earlier in the day and extending the overnight fast, significantly benefited metabolism even in people who didn’t lose a single pound.

Easy tricks:

1) You're fat and weak
Fast until you're not fat, then move to number 2. You do not need to eat if you are fat because you're already bursting at the seams with fuel. You can have water, coffee (Idk who said coffee = calories but that's 100% incorrect), and electrolytes. It gets easier around Day 3. If you want a guide, buy the Fung fasting guide.

"But it's hard!"

No it's not, you just have to not eat.

If you don't have the strength of will to fast, then you should intermittent fast (preferably one meal a day). You eat no snacks. You eat no bread, ever. You eat no processed carbohydrates such as crackers or cereal. You consume nothing containing added sugars of any sort. If it is packaged in a box, you do not eat it.

2) You're skinny and weak
Start one of the myriad linear progression barbell lifting routines. Starting Strength, Stronglifts, Greyskull, whatever. People debate which one is "the best" endlessly, which is retarded, because they're all about the same. What's important is that the main focus is heavy compounds in the 5-rep range for at least three sets of near-maximal loading at least 3 days a week with a rest day between each lift day. Once you stall on your compound lifts for a month, change to an intermediate weightlifting routine. Any of the linear progression programs should have you near 135lb OHP, 225lb Bench Press, 315lb Squat, and 405 Deadlift before you stall, and if you are consistent you will reach these in a year or less.

For nutrition, eat a diet based in whole foods. Beef, chicken, fish, eggs, vegetables, NON-PROCESSED carbohydrate sources. Anecdotally, my best gains came from eating a diet as outlined above, without trying to cram my face with food, and supplenting with BOFAD (Bottle Of Fairlife A Day). It adds about 900 calories, almost 100g of protein, and is lactose-free so your stomach doesn't get wrecked. Never even used protein shakes. I increased my squat from 225 to 315 in a month using BOFAD.

Creatine is the only supplement worth taking. You can try zinc/magnesium too if you want, I don't notice much as far as performance increases, but my quality of sleep is increased if I take it about an hour before bed.

3) You're fat and strong
Fast or intermittent fast until you're as lean as you wish to be. Many claim that lifting in a fasted state is best for fat loss, but in my experience, I can maintain much more intensity in the gym when I time my feeding an hour or two before working out. Intermittent fasting is highly adaptable to your lifestyle: you can have a 6hr eating window every day, or you can OMAD (one meal a day), or you can eat once every 2 days, etc. The idea is to make sure that your "fed" time is much lower than your "fasted" time.

4) You're strong and lean
Keep doing whatever you're doing.


None of it is very mysterious. The fitness & nutrition industry is notoriously full of shit and snake oil salesmen. You NEED this supplement. Just stop eating this ONE food (this one is only legitimate if that food is bread). This OnE wEiRd tRiCk has experts BAFFLED!

If you're fat, don't eat. If you're weak, pick up heavy things and put them down over and over. Don't eat food that is produced by engineers. The rest is mostly chaff.

I like IF and fasting for the health benefits beyond simple fat loss. You don't have to do it to get lean, that can be accomplished many ways.

Some of the health benefits are autophagy where it gives your body a chance to get rid of bad cellular materials. There are some studies (only in rats I believe) showing drastic improvements to chemo therapy. Rats were given lethal or near lethal chemo doses. The fed rats mostly died (and the survivors looked like they had one paw in the grave). The rats who fasted for 2 days prior all survived and had energy, seemed fine. Something about how healthy cells when "starved" rearrange their DNA to protect themselves, cancer cells don't leaving them exposed to getting whacked by the chemo. A woman newly diagnosed saw this study and went for it against Dr. advice. She had very fe symptoms compared to her friend going through it at the same time. She ate pre-chemo a few treatments as well. When she ate, she felt terrible, fasted, felt much better. There is a fasting documentary on Netfix which is where I saw this.

A multi-day fast is the ultimate "cleanse" as well.

For practical purposes, I like being completely flexible with food. I know I can go all day without eating, at a high activity level (including workouts) with steady energy no problem. I'm still experimenting on myself, but I've run 17.7 mi in a fasted state and walked 24-26 mi with no energy issues. My longest multi-day was 5 days, ran or did a bodyweight strength workout every day and worked my full-time job no problem. The "hunger" is psychological, it is a mind-screw for a modern society American to not eat for multiple days.

For that reason I wouldn't suggest multi-day fasting for a beginner. Get your nutrition dialed in first. Preferably go low carb and get fat-adapted first as well. Then mess around with IF a little, stretch it to a dinner-dinner one a day or 2 per week.

To set aside the nutrition for a moment, I'd like to bring something back into the mix.

In my comments I've talked about it somewhat, but the importance can't be understated.

Mental health. Outlook. Motivation. However you'd like to frame it.

What we eat and our activity level have a big impact on our mood, and vice versa. We are chemical and hormonal beings, and letting food urges control what you do and how you feel is something that must be brought under your willful control.

Just as with nutrition, there are many ways to approach this, but a strategy is needed for success.

It is all too easy to binge the shit out of whatever you have a taste for.

Not doing that actually takes more than "a plan" or "wanting to," if we're honest it takes some mental/emotional capital to get started, and you've got to find drive to keep going. This isn't easy, for a lot of people.

Finding what works, is key. Physically, mentally, nutritionally, schedulally, you've got to be able to actually hack it if it is to work. At the same time, too hard, and you'll fold. Well, don't give up too easily, but don't stop trying.

I recently had the stomach flu and dropped 3 or 4 pounds in a day or two. It served as a very effective appetite reset and I cannot eat the amount of food I did before without getting a stomach ache afterwards. I've held the weight off and have been inching downward about a pound a week. I'm not really overweight, but its all around the midsection, love handles, seat cushion. I've been trying to stick to higher protein foods and cut out the carbs.

I gained sympathy weight for each of our 3 kids, I dropped it all running around in the hospital for the first 2, but not the 3rd. I switched jobs after the 3rd and dropped 15 pounds from stress of learning something new in a matter of a couple weeks, but gained 20 back afterwards from eating out for lunch too much there. I now limit the dangerous Chick fil A that is within eyesight of my office from once a week to once every other week...

The stomach flu got me off of my daily Mt Dew Throwback addiction, but to my wife's dismay I got back into it.

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:
To set aside the nutrition for a moment, I'd like to bring something back into the mix.

In my comments I've talked about it somewhat, but the importance can't be understated.

Mental health. Outlook. Motivation. However you'd like to frame it.

What we eat and our activity level have a big impact on our mood, and vice versa. We are chemical and hormonal beings, and letting food urges control what you do and how you feel is something that must be brought under your willful control.

Good thoughts. Here is one thing I know for sure having lived what most would probably say has been an objectionably hard life at times...

Life and stress is a whole lot easier when you are in shape. I don't just mean physical stress, mental stress is way easier when you are in shape as well.

Health, nutrition, physical condition, stress, performance, success...they are all related.