Neighborhood Karens making a fuss about my FFL application.
quote:
Originally posted by HarrisonLLC:
Edited to add: I just caught the "pre-populated 4473" that can get him prison time. The dealer cannot fill out a 4473 for you. If a person fills out the 4473 for someone else, example you cannot write, it must be witnessed by 2 others and signed by them. This is a major violation of 18 u.s.c.
Really? Some of the local FFLs use e-4473s and store the info. So, when I come again, it just pulls up my info and they can print it off. If they have a copy of my DL and CCW and nothing has changed, why can't they just print a new one with the current date on it? I'm sure I've done this at brick and mortar big FFLs before. But no matter, I won't be doing it again.
Now that I've been through all this and know there are three (I found a third today) home-based FFLs in the neighborhood, I'll go through them and it's almost walking distance.
December 31, 2024, 09:47 PM
mrvmax
quote:
Originally posted by Rick Lee:
quote:
Originally posted by HarrisonLLC:
Edited to add: I just caught the "pre-populated 4473" that can get him prison time. The dealer cannot fill out a 4473 for you. If a person fills out the 4473 for someone else, example you cannot write, it must be witnessed by 2 others and signed by them. This is a major violation of 18 u.s.c.
Really? Some of the local FFLs use e-4473s and store the info. So, when I come again, it just pulls up my info and they can print it off. If they have a copy of my DL and CCW and nothing has changed, why can't they just print a new one with the current date on it? I'm sure I've done this at brick and mortar big FFLs before. But no matter, I won't be doing it again.
Now that I've been through all this and know there are three (I found a third today) home-based FFLs in the neighborhood, I'll go through them and it's almost walking distance.
I used to have software like that but got rid of it and have better software. That software is not complaint and will eventually get the FFL into trouble. The 4473 is pretty clear on these things, read section B notes about filling out in person and where the buyer signs for certification.
Edited to add: I just caught the "pre-populated 4473" that can get him prison time. The dealer cannot fill out a 4473 for you. If a person fills out the 4473 for someone else, example you cannot write, it must be witnessed by 2 others and signed by them. This is a major violation of 18 u.s.c.
Really? Some of the local FFLs use e-4473s and store the info. So, when I come again, it just pulls up my info and they can print it off. If they have a copy of my DL and CCW and nothing has changed, why can't they just print a new one with the current date on it? I'm sure I've done this at brick and mortar big FFLs before. But no matter, I won't be doing it again.
Now that I've been through all this and know there are three (I found a third today) home-based FFLs in the neighborhood, I'll go through them and it's almost walking distance.
I used to have software like that but got rid of it and have better software. That software is not complaint and will eventually get the FFL into trouble. The 4473 is pretty clear on these things, read section B notes about filling out in person and where the buyer signs for certification.
You are allowed to fill these out electronically. However, pre-populated automatically assumes your answers to the questions which is against FFL regulations. We are not allowed to answer the questions for you, nor push you to the correct answer. All we are allowed to do is help you understand the questions.
-------------------------------------------------------------- Harrison Shooter Supply FFL 07 SOT I am the member formerly known as "Southernmaninla".
January 01, 2025, 08:26 AM
HarrisonLLC
As to the OP I would pour through and locate every business in your area that's home-based. Use the regs. The regs specifically do not say you're not allowed to have a home-based FFL then them denying you is grounds for a counter suit. Usually regulations for hoa's and municipalities will say things like no home-based slaughterhouse or funeral home etc.This message has been edited. Last edited by: HarrisonLLC, January 01, 2025 11:22 AM
-------------------------------------------------------------- Harrison Shooter Supply FFL 07 SOT I am the member formerly known as "Southernmaninla".
January 01, 2025, 09:39 AM
Rick Lee
quote:
Originally posted by HarrisonLLC: As to the OP I would pour through and locate every business in your area that's home-based. Use the regs. The rag specifically do not say you're not allowed to have a home-based FFL then them denying you is grounds for a counter suit. Usually regulations for hoars will say things like no home-based slaughterhouse or funeral home etc.
The problem is not that all these businesses are intentionally skirting the law. They don't know about it. Several I asked had never heard of it. I think they all figure that along as no one is complaining and the HOA doesn't care, they're all good. The two home-based FFLs who had never heard of the permit obviously had no problem getting their FFLs issued. I don't want to rat anyone out. I'm already public enemy #1 due to the sign the city planted in my yard. Sure, I will mention the very loose and selective enforcement of permitting with the nearby examples. But I don't want to mention names or addresses and make people hate me more. I just want to point out the irony of non-permitted businesses conducting every activity that requires the permit, but that my not conducting any of them still gets me a mountain of opposition.
January 01, 2025, 09:56 AM
Rick Lee
I talked with two neighbors yesterday. The one nextdoor is about to list his house for sale and I wanted to reassure him that that sign would be out of my yard as soon as my hearing was overwith. He was totally cool and said the main Karen across the street was one of the reasons he wanted to move.
The other one I spoke with, I went over to hand him an air filter for his car, as I used to have the same car and had a spare new air filter I couldn't use. We got talking and he's a total gun guy, wants to go shooting with me and said he'd come to me for transfers. How crazy would it be for him to have to drive to a gun store for a much more expensive transfer, when I live 100' away?
But the chutzpah award goes to the furniture builder. I got an opposition letter from him and his wife! Well, maybe the wife sent it without his knowledge. But he told me he wouldn't mind having an FFL nearby. He has since started keeping his garage door closed and even put foil on the inside of his garage windows. I think he's trying to make his furniture-building business a little less conspicuous now that the main Karen has been bringing a lot of heat down on me.
I don't know if there's a threshold for how many opposition letters the planning board has to get before they just flat out deny my app. But I'm pretty sure that threshold has been crossed, if there is one. I really don't see how this hearing is gonna be anything other than a formality before I'm told to pound sand.
January 01, 2025, 10:18 AM
chellim1
quote:
Actually, they'd not even know about it if ATF weren't forcing me to get a city zoning adjustment permit for operating a business out of my house. ATF said I have to have this permit before they will reconsider my FFL app, but my investigator is otherwise pretty cool, said they'd refund my fee and fast track my re-application once I have the city permit.
Is this a new thing? I've known home-based FFLs who weren't required to do this. It bothers me that the Federal government would get involved with local government enforcement.
"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." -- Justice Janice Rogers Brown
"The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth." -rduckwor
January 01, 2025, 11:03 AM
bigwagon
quote:
Originally posted by Rick Lee:
But the chutzpah award goes to the furniture builder. I got an opposition letter from him and his wife! Well, maybe the wife sent it without his knowledge. But he told me he wouldn't mind having an FFL nearby. He has since started keeping his garage door closed and even put foil on the inside of his garage windows. I think he's trying to make his furniture-building business a little less conspicuous now that the main Karen has been bringing a lot of heat down on me.
I don't know if there's a threshold for how many opposition letters the planning board has to get before they just flat out deny my app. But I'm pretty sure that threshold has been crossed, if there is one. I really don't see how this hearing is gonna be anything other than a formality before I'm told to pound sand.
At your hearing you need to throw that guy's illegal business under the bus just on the principle of it, especially if you are denied.
January 01, 2025, 11:12 AM
Rick Lee
I don't want to make any more enemies, especially if this guy could have been on my side and his wife just sent the letter with his name on it. It's quite obvious some of these letters are constructed with copying and pasting or ChatGPT. One couple even sent an email with another couple's letter attached and just wrote, "We are in complete agreement with the attached letter." I call this "slacktivism," but it's still gonna sink my application.
January 01, 2025, 11:14 AM
mjlennon
Perhaps you should consider a strip club instead.
January 01, 2025, 11:26 AM
HarrisonLLC
quote:
Originally posted by chellim1:
quote:
Actually, they'd not even know about it if ATF weren't forcing me to get a city zoning adjustment permit for operating a business out of my house. ATF said I have to have this permit before they will reconsider my FFL app, but my investigator is otherwise pretty cool, said they'd refund my fee and fast track my re-application once I have the city permit.
Is this a new thing? I've known home-based FFLs who weren't required to do this. It bothers me that the Federal government would get involved with local government enforcement.
They will only issue an FFL if there are no HOA, city, county or state ordinances against it. If any of those require some kind of sign off and they don't sign off FFL will be denied. Our first brick and mortar location was within 1000 ft of a school All firearms leaving the store or coming into the store had to be cased.
-------------------------------------------------------------- Harrison Shooter Supply FFL 07 SOT I am the member formerly known as "Southernmaninla".
January 01, 2025, 11:41 AM
Rick Lee
There are no laws or HOA CCRs against having a home-based FFL. Again, there are already three in the immediate area. I emailed the HOA about this when I was starting the process and the just pointed me to the language in the CCRs that said home-based businesses can't be seen, heard or smelled from the outside. That's it.
January 01, 2025, 11:50 AM
a1abdj
Can you post a link to your city/county ordinance regarding home based businesses?
Originally posted by bigwagon: At your hearing you need to throw that guy's illegal business under the bus just on the principle of it, especially if you are denied.
Well, well, well, I just stumbled upon the furniture builder's FB page, which then took me to his very nice website listing his inventory and pricing, all of it photographed in his driveway or house. If this isn't a retail business, I don't know what is. Again, no beef at all with what he's doing. I have to assume his wife sent that letter without his knowledge, as he just could not be so two-faced and think I wouldn't mention his operation as an example of very selective enforcement.
January 01, 2025, 11:56 AM
Rick Lee
quote:
Originally posted by a1abdj: Can you post a link to your city/county ordinance regarding home based businesses?
Your business is quiet, unlike Bob the Furniture Builder whose woodworking equipment is noisy.
January 01, 2025, 09:48 PM
drill sgt
quote:
Originally posted by Rick Lee:
quote:
Originally posted by bigwagon: At your hearing you need to throw that guy's illegal business under the bus just on the principle of it, especially if you are denied.
Well, well, well, I just stumbled upon the furniture builder's FB page, which then took me to his very nice website listing his inventory and pricing, all of it photographed in his driveway or house. If this isn't a retail business, I don't know what is. Again, no beef at all with what he's doing. I have to assume his wife sent that letter without his knowledge, as he just could not be so two-faced and think I wouldn't mention his operation as an example of very selective enforcement.
^^^^^^^^ Mr. Lee .... maybe approach the furniture builder neighbor and ask him point blank about the opposition to his FFL and if his wife is involved.. Remind him of his operation could be at risk if she continues to push the issue.... If he accuses you of attempted blackmail tell him take it for what it is worth........ good luck................. drill sgt.
January 01, 2025, 10:00 PM
Rick Lee
No time to do that now. Hearing is tomorrow.
But that furniture guy now keeps his garage door closed, whereas it was always open before and we always waved or said hello while I was at the mailbox cluster, coming home from work. I'm about ready to just go scorched Earth tomorrow, file an appeal, write letters and maybe even try to dig up some old contacts at ATF.
January 02, 2025, 09:11 AM
Rick Lee
And a ray of hope emerges. I was just copied on an email to the City from a couple who had written to oppose my application. This was their message:
Dear Zoning Board, After communicating with the applicant we have decided to withdraw our opposition letter. Thank you,
