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Age Quod Agis |
Link With graphs, and link to Zitner's article, which is also excellent.
I find that this is fundamentally true. Many of the people that I interact with daily, both personally and professionally are Democrats, and some are quite liberal. But for the margins (guns, abortion, and the Supreme Court, particularly), we aren't that far off each other in opinion, desired outcome, or required policy. And with respect to those areas of disagreement, such as stated above, it is more a matter of degree, rather than outright, unbridgeable gap that centers the discussion. We are being deliberately inflamed to benefit the power and pocketbooks of certain segments of society. Regrettably, those benefitting sit at the very top of the power and money pyramid in this Nation. Nonetheless, it is up to us to rise to Lincoln's challenge in our personal lives, professional interactions, and political discussions: to abjure anger and hatred; to reject the forces that divide us; to deny power to those who deliberately and inflame our passions; to refuse the sweet temptation of tribalism, and to understand that "We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battlefield and patriot grave to every living heart and hearthstone all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature." With grace, thank you for reading. A "I vowed to myself to fight against evil more completely and more wholeheartedly than I ever did before. . . . That’s the only way to pay back part of that vast debt, to live up to and try to fulfill that tremendous obligation." Alfred Hornik, Sunday, December 2, 1945 to his family, on his continuing duty to others for surviving WW II. | ||
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Member |
Too much to read .. | |||
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Shit don't mean shit |
I'd agree with this. Guilty as charged. Hatred may be a little strong. Zero respect would probably be more accurate. | |||
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Tenacious Tempestuous with Integrity |
Very informative and interesting read ArtieS. Thanks for the thread. | |||
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Still finding my way |
The only logical answer is to hate both sides. It's one entity anyway just working to make the people divided. | |||
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Shall Not Be Infringed |
I was following along until he got here...
Selectively bolded for emphasis to point out things that were misrepresented and/or didn't happen! IMO the match was lit during Obama's Presidency, and everything accelerated exponentially since that time. While the author seems intent on being perceived as not taking a side here, he seems to be unwilling to recognize that political and racial division was at the core of much of Obama's actions/agenda while in office. I don't recall racism being much of a thing prior to Obama, and then suddenly now, everything is racism! Further still, now the .gov has been weaponized against one half of the country, whom had been labeled domestic terrorists by that government and who are guilty of nothing more that not being part of and/or in lockstep with the party in power! Looking back it's as if the 'Fundamental Transformation of this Country' Obama proclaimed was intended to destroy it from within! ____________________________________________________________ If Some is Good, and More is Better.....then Too Much, is Just Enough !! Trump 2024....Make America Great Again! "May Almighty God bless the United States of America" - parabellum 7/26/20 Live Free or Die! | |||
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Frangas non Flectes |
A divided populace isn't going to direct much energy at the power brokers pulling the strings. While much of the article reads true to me, I think there's a class above the two tribes. ______________________________________________ “There are plenty of good reasons for fighting, but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God Almighty Himself hates with you, too.” | |||
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Peace through superior firepower |
Don't post stuff like that. If you can't be bothered, there's no need to be rude. | |||
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Drill Here, Drill Now |
Good article. One thing the author only touched the surface was the impact of tech companies and their algorithms. IMO, the top 3 tech company algorithm impacts: Ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity DISCLAIMER: These are the author's own personal views and do not represent the views of the author's employer. | |||
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No More Mr. Nice Guy |
With due respect to Mr Lincoln, one cannot be friends with people who are hostile to one's liberties and who view one as an enemy to be destroyed. This is no longer about tax rates, should we put money more into a new school buildings or into road repair, or foreign policy, or other mundane issues. I am predisposed to see the good in people. Too much so really, to my detriment sometimes. I prefer a dispute be resolved with an honest meeting of the minds rather than an unhappy stalemate, even if my side is favored while in stalemate. I wish for everyone to be happy and prosperous, and for others to desire the same. We can debate and disagree on how that might be achieved, but at least we would be seeking the same outcomes. Perhaps I have been brainwashed into tribalism, but my perception of our society over my lifetime (62 yrs old) is that the radical activist left has been pushing hard to force their agenda onto everyone. It used to be a "live and let live" attitude, classically liberal, that guided society. I think the big change is not so much the details of the disagreement between the citizens, but that a large portion of the left has come to believe it is righteous to destroy those to their right. They believe it is ok to take away rights such as free speech, to imprison people for their political affiliation, nullify their vote, take away their parental rights, etc. A sizable portion of the left no longer desires debate or fair political competition. This is an existential threat we've seen played out in history where tyranny takes over and people suffer immensely. | |||
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Wait, what? |
While the article has several good points, it has clear bias for the left, and against the right. By focusing on Trump’s so called “fluke” win, the obvious false proceedings against him. By completely glossing over Obama’s dividing the nation and his blatant attack on law enforcement and law and order. By supporting thugs and their ilk with lenient or nonexistent penalties for serious crimes. Then there is Biden’s clear criminal activity to date. The article loses most of its credibility. This is an attempt to rally the leftist base while trying to sway the opposition to accept their arguments as valid. “Remember to get vaccinated or a vaccinated person might get sick from a virus they got vaccinated against because you’re not vaccinated.” - author unknown | |||
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Still finding my way |
My theory on our current political and cultural battles are we are too many. There are too many people and the cultures are too diverse for humans to be comfortable and happy. Anthropologically speaking we are in our most natural environment when in small towns or tribes among like people who share our culture. Forcing too many different tribes together into mega-cities will bring clashes and discontent 100% of the time. It's how we are wired and how our brains have developed for many hundreds of thousands of years. The elites and politicians are just capitalizing on our divides for their own gain. They are parasites, nothing more. They care about us no more than a locust does for the crop field he and his just devoured. They are really good at it though and they are also really good at convincing 50% of the populace that they are on their side and get supported. | |||
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Age Quod Agis |
Which is exactly my point, and the point of the article. When I talk to actual liberal people, not pundits, not reporters, not listen to the media, not politicians, I realize we aren't as far apart as we are portrayed to be in actual positions. We are terribly far apart emotionally. My reaction to the generic "democrat" is hugely negative. But when I compare my opinion and reaction to the stereotypical democrat to my actual experience with actual democrats in the real world, I find that personally, we want the same things, and mostly agree on how to achieve them. For example, I don't know a single middle class person, (my demographic), left or right, who thinks DEI is a good thing. I also don't know anyone, left or right, who actually believes that racism has been extinguished in this country. So what do we do? Screeching at each other isn't going to solve the problem. Declaring the other side the unforgivable enemy isn't going to solve the problem. Cultural warfare will not lead to a lasting peace. We must learn to accommodate each other to the extent consistent with the Constitution, which is the foundation of the nation, and the statement of our concept of liberty. "I vowed to myself to fight against evil more completely and more wholeheartedly than I ever did before. . . . That’s the only way to pay back part of that vast debt, to live up to and try to fulfill that tremendous obligation." Alfred Hornik, Sunday, December 2, 1945 to his family, on his continuing duty to others for surviving WW II. | |||
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Uppity Helot |
I followed Halpin’s article with some interest until the sections that NHRacecraft had emboldened. Halpin seems like just another partisan printing his coy leftist ruminations. Seemingly dismayed at the presence and appetite of a monster that he and his paymasters have been feeding for decades. | |||
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More light than heat |
Good article. I couldn't agree more. I have many conservative and liberal friends and I likewise do not find that they really disagree as much as the media would have you believe. Things that one side finds infuriating tend to also create unease in their nominal political advocates as well. The body politic is capable of much more nuance than the political media establishment would have you believe. But hatred sells clicks and also attracts money from well heeled advocates. I have followed politics my entire life and have believed for a long time (at least 30 years) that we have been played against each other for the benefit of others. Ready for some truth? 1. Liberals do not "hate" the right and do not want to see them "destroyed". They're not really in the business of hating anyone (and occasionally demonstrate a foolish naivete about that), not least which because many of the people they purportedly hate and want to destroy are their friends, relatives and parents. They are increasingly frightened by some of the rhetoric that has emerged from the right, and are not sure what to make of that, but are acutely aware of the danger of ignoring it. But anybody who tells you your more liberal countrymen hate you and want to destroy you is a demagogue, nothing more. 2. Liberals aren't always sure what they think about LGBT issues. They mostly think gay people should just be left alone and have the same rights as anyone else. But most liberals I know think the whole "trans/non-binary/pronouns" thing is nonsense. They believe gender dysphoria is real, but waaaayyyy overblown today. But they aren't inclined to be up in arms about it because they think it's a fad that doesn't hurt anybody, strange as it is. To give you a personal example, my 17 year old daughter advised us in the Spring that she is dating a girl. Is she gay? She doesn't know. We don't know either. The gay folks we know don't know either. So we treat her girlfriend like another daughter and make sure they behave. They are very happy together. 3. Every liberal I have ever met agrees that Americans should have the right to own a firearm. They believe that it is Constitutionally protected and are glad to have that right. However, they are appalled at gun violence, particularly in schools. Even some of my most politically conservative gun-owning friends are becoming concerned about it. And liberals are firmly convinced that it has gotten out of hand. My best friend's wife, a deputy Sheriff, was very nearly killed by a conservative anti-government gun nut in a close quarters gun battle two years ago (he missed, she didn't). They still love to shoot, but something seems very off to them. It's very different than it was when I began shooting in the early eighties. My father, a liberal who actively dislikes firearms, bought me my first two firearms, if that tells you anything. 4. Liberals consider themselves fiscally conservative, too. Yes, try not to laugh. I think we can agree that both parties really, really like to spend money. Liberals have an uncomfortable tendency to look for government solutions without any thought as to how these solutions are going to funded. They do like a bigger government and I think this issue is a legitimate dispute between the parties. But they see a lot of people making a lot of money and none of it coming down to the average person. There are a lot of reasons for that, not all of them the nefarious hand of crony capitalism, which brings me to my next point. 5. The United States has (is) changed. But it wasn't the liberals or conservatives who changed it. When older Americans state that "they don't recognize this country anymore", I have some sympathy toward that. I'm sure they don't--the U.S. has changed a lot. The U.S., having rebuilt the rest of the world post WWII, now finds itself having to compete in it, often at a disadvantage (see China). This means that the old post-Roosevelt big-government way of doing things gets unaffordable very quickly. Entitlements are going to have to change, but so is our winner-take-all brand of capitalism, or you really will see some upheaval. This is really where Trump comes in. His appeal more than anything is that he isn't the status quo--and Americans almost universally are done with the status quo. If you aren't then you are probably sitting on top of the pile. 6. There is a rural/urban divide. What's infuriating to me is that this is where all the deliberate division comes into play. Rural areas have been decimated by #5, above. Rural people, largely white people, are poorer than they have ever been and there seems to be a never ending array of characters ready to offer up a scapegoat for that. Conservative demagogues will blame liberals, minorities, George Soros, and the Federal government. Liberals blame large corporations, the Koch Brothers, Fox News and the NRA. Rural America doesn't have one problem that couldn't be solved by an influx of $$$. But how to get it there when everybody wants cheap clothes and kitchen gadgets from China? So there are a lot of problems, none of which are getting solved by our "watch my hand, watch it" brand of politics. You can hate liberals all you want, but it isn't going to solve any of these problems because probably 70% of the U.S. is less conservative than the SF. You're not going to secede, and you're not going to declare war. But your input and participation is essential because I believe conservative values of tradition, honor, patriotism, and good government are American values. But nobody's going to listen as long as you have a sword in your hand. Anyway, my .02. Thanks for listening. _________________________ "Age does not bring wisdom. Often it merely changes simple stupidity into arrogant conceit. It's only advantage, so far as I have been able to see, is that it spans change. A young person sees the world as a still picture, immutable. An old person has had his nose rubbed in changes and more changes and still more changes so many times that that he knows it is a moving picture, forever changing. He may not like it--probably doesn't; I don't--but he knows it's so, and knowing is the first step in coping with it." Robert Heinlein | |||
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Peripheral Visionary |
George Carlin was right. And if you like this one, pull up the one about 'The Big Club'. | |||
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Shall Not Be Infringed |
Liberals aren't the problem and I don't think the VAST and OVERWHELMING majority of Conservatives hate Liberals. In fact, it would be un-serious to think otherwise! It's the Leftists (Those formerly known as Progressives that have now 'come out of the closet' and aren't trying to hide it anymore) that are the problem! In fact, the only problem to consider with Liberals is that they support, AND vote for people that are hell bent on the Fundamental Transformation of this Country...People that seemingly Hate America, and Hate Americans! It seems that these people can't be reasoned with either... ____________________________________________________________ If Some is Good, and More is Better.....then Too Much, is Just Enough !! Trump 2024....Make America Great Again! "May Almighty God bless the United States of America" - parabellum 7/26/20 Live Free or Die! | |||
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Domari Nolo |
Great post. One of the best I've read here. Thank you. | |||
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Mistake Not... |
Thank you for posting this. You aren't alone in thinking this. ___________________________________________ Life Member NRA & Washington Arms Collectors Mistake not my current state of joshing gentle peevishness for the awesome and terrible majesty of the towering seas of ire that are themselves the milquetoast shallows fringing my vast oceans of wrath. Velocitas Incursio Vis - Gandhi | |||
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Member |
Just for the sake of this discussion, if we define liberals as having voted Democrat in 2020, amongst their other attributes, If I were to believe that Joe Biden actually won the 2020 election by a preponderance of legitimate votes, then I have to believe that enough liberals turned out to vote for Joe Biden, either A) Because they liked him based on his history, and believed he'd be a good President, and are happy with his performance, or B) They turned out because they HATED Donald Trump (and me and all the other Constitutionalist/conservative MAGA types), and the values we stand for, and believe are good for the USA SO much, that they voted in numbers unprecedented in American history. Being as I've not found Biden voters who tell me they voted Democrat in 2020 and are happy with Biden's efforts, but can only respond with illogical, emotional, He's Not Trump replies ... I have to go with B.This message has been edited. Last edited by: RichardC, ____________________ | |||
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