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Age Quod Agis
Picture of ArtieS
posted
Link With graphs, and link to Zitner's article, which is also excellent.

quote:
Voters Aren’t the Problem. It’s the Media and Political Institutions.
JOHN HALPIN
SEP 13

If we want to reduce political polarization, we need to focus more on the institutions that prey on human weaknesses and instincts for tribalism.

The Wall Street Journal recently ran an excellent bit of descriptive political journalism from Aaron Zitner looking at the evidence around rising partisan polarization and its potential causes—“Why Tribalism Took Over Politics. Social science gives us an uncomfortable explanation: Our brains are made for conflict.”

Drawing on time series data from the Pew Research Center, the WSJ published a remarkable graph showing the sharp increase from 1994 to 2022 in self-identified Republicans and Democrats (excluding independents and leaners) holding very unfavorable opinions of the opposite party.

As Zitner writes:

More than 60 percent of Republicans and more than half of Democrats now view the other party ‘very unfavorably,’ about three times the shares when Pew Research Center polled on it in the early 1990s. Several polls find that more than 70 percent within each party think the other party’s leaders are a danger to democracy or back an agenda that would destroy the country.

The article outlines various explanations for why this might be the case including demographic sorting, the alignment of ideology and religion with particular parties, and declining interactions between people with different views and partisanship. Zitner also summarizes some of the behavioral research on how the human mind gets warped by partisan identity:

Party allegiance can affect our judgment and behavior, many experiments show. When Shanto Iyengar of Stanford University and Sean J. Westwood, then at Princeton University, asked a group of Democrats and Republicans to review the résumés of two fictitious high-school students in a 2015 study, their subjects proved more likely to award a scholarship to the student who matched their own party affiliation. People in the experiment gave political party more weight than the student’s race or even grade-point average.

In a landmark 2013 study, Dan Kahan, a Yale University law professor, and colleagues assessed the math skills of about 1,000 adults, a mix of self-described liberals, conservatives and moderates. Then, the researchers gave them a politically inflected math problem to solve, presenting data that pointed to whether cities that had banned concealed handguns experienced a decrease or increase in crime. In half the tests, solving the problem correctly showed that a concealed-carry ban reduced crime rates. In the other half, the correct solution would suggest that crime had risen.

The result was striking: The more adept the test-takers were at math, the more likely they were to get the correct answer—but only when the right answer matched their political outlook. When the right answer ran contrary to their political stance—that is, when liberals drew a version of the problem suggesting that gun control was ineffective—they tended to give the wrong answer. They were no more likely to solve the problem correctly than were people in the study who were less adept at math.

These social scientific theories and findings make intuitive sense and are consistent with much of human history: people are tribal and tend to sort themselves into “us vs them” groups based on identity and shape their opinions, beliefs, and actions accordingly.

But individual level explanations alone seem insufficient for explaining rising partisan animosity in American life. After all, human beings weren’t any different or less hardwired for tribalism in 1994 than they were in 2022. And other advanced democracies have the same challenges as the U.S. but without the intense partisan divides, culture wars, and mutual loathing based on politics.

So why do Republicans and Democrats today hate the other side so much more intensely than just a few decades ago?

Short answer: the media and political institutions did it.

Someone or something had to exploit people’s tendency toward tribalism and sectarian politics for these trends to grow so rapidly.

If we look briefly at the time period covered here we can see how this partisan animosity was generated. On the media side, both MSNBC and Fox News began operations in 1996, and later evolved into the primary cable proprietors fueling intense partisanship on both sides of the aisle. If a person wants selected nuggets of information to dunk on the other side, they can get them all day long. If they don’t want them, they get them anyway. Likewise, social media platforms like Facebook and Twitter started in the early 2000s and grew exponentially over the next decade—along with lightning fast internet access and everyone having a smart phone. If a person wants to get outraged and yell at people randomly online, or listen in on others on a podcast or video doing it for them, there’s an app for that. If they don’t want it, some algorithm might boost the anger anyway.

When the Supreme Court eliminated virtually all restrictions on corporate and individual spending on politics in 2010, partisan advertising, organizing, and ideological combat soon became a multi-billion dollar operation. If a rich person wants to launch scurrilous attacks on leaders, parties, and other Americans—or advance a pet radical cause or culture war issue through a tax-exempt organization—nothing stands in their way. Small donors can now do the same.

The politics of this time period match the media trajectory with steadily increasing partisan hatred and little common sense. Bill Clinton was impeached in 1998 for his personal behavior followed closely by the lengthy and widely disputed resolution of the 2000 election in favor of George W. Bush. The 9/11 attacks temporarily united the country under Bush who then promptly squandered the good will in Iraq and with his grinding “war on terror” politics. The financial crisis hit—and despite some public optimism around Barack Obama’s historic victory in 2008 and attempts to break the blue-red divide—populist uprisings ensued and public discontent grew. The national mood further soured toward the end of the second Obama term and then Donald Trump won the 2016 election in an Electoral College fluke.

The rest of the political story—the “resistance”, the partisan Trump impeachment, the stolen election lies, January 6, and a second arguably more justified impeachment—is well known up until 2022 when Pew last tested this question. It hasn’t improved since as House leaders just this week launched another partisan impeachment inquiry (without a vote) into Joe Biden in response to multiple criminal cases against the former president.

Politics today is little more than raw hatred of the other side.

Although Americans have always been divided by politics, and psychologically prone to tribalism, the opportunities for these divides to be forced into all aspects of life grew substantially over this time period. People didn’t change. What changed was the ability of major institutions and companies to turn partisan inclinations into a serious business model built on mutual hate: Pick your side, pick your tools, pick your facts, and pick a fight.

The conditions were ripe for media, tech companies, and political organizations to become flame throwers of partisan hatred—and that’s what they did.

So the question of how to “fix” political tribalism, if it can be fixed at all, must focus more on the supply side of the equation—who or what is creating and fanning the divides and for what purpose. Building alternatives to the current models will be the topic of future columns.

Government and corporations can’t—and shouldn’t—try to change Americans or curtail them in some way.

Instead, if we want to ratchet down the temperature and rhetoric, we need to figure out how to develop better media, non-profit, educational, governmental, and political institutions—built on basic liberal values with fewer instincts towards sectarianism—while maintaining a firm commitment to free speech and free enterprise.

We need to counterbalance the bad institutional actors with better ones.


I find that this is fundamentally true. Many of the people that I interact with daily, both personally and professionally are Democrats, and some are quite liberal. But for the margins (guns, abortion, and the Supreme Court, particularly), we aren't that far off each other in opinion, desired outcome, or required policy. And with respect to those areas of disagreement, such as stated above, it is more a matter of degree, rather than outright, unbridgeable gap that centers the discussion.

We are being deliberately inflamed to benefit the power and pocketbooks of certain segments of society. Regrettably, those benefitting sit at the very top of the power and money pyramid in this Nation.

Nonetheless, it is up to us to rise to Lincoln's challenge in our personal lives, professional interactions, and political discussions: to abjure anger and hatred; to reject the forces that divide us; to deny power to those who deliberately and inflame our passions; to refuse the sweet temptation of tribalism, and to understand that "We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battlefield and patriot grave to every living heart and hearthstone all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature."

With grace, thank you for reading.

A



"I vowed to myself to fight against evil more completely and more wholeheartedly than I ever did before. . . . That’s the only way to pay back part of that vast debt, to live up to and try to fulfill that tremendous obligation."

Alfred Hornik, Sunday, December 2, 1945 to his family, on his continuing duty to others for surviving WW II.
 
Posts: 13039 | Location: Central Florida | Registered: November 02, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Too much to read ..
 
Posts: 4423 | Location: Down in Louisiana . | Registered: February 27, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Shit don't
mean shit
posted Hide Post
quote:
Politics today is little more than raw hatred of the other side.


I'd agree with this. Guilty as charged. Hatred may be a little strong. Zero respect would probably be more accurate.
 
Posts: 5835 | Location: 7400 feet in Conifer CO | Registered: November 14, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Tenacious
Tempestuous
with Integrity
posted Hide Post
Very informative and interesting read ArtieS.
Thanks for the thread.
 
Posts: 877 | Location: NW OHIO | Registered: December 31, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Still finding my way
Picture of Ryanp225
posted Hide Post
The only logical answer is to hate both sides.
It's one entity anyway just working to make the people divided.
 
Posts: 10851 | Registered: January 04, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Shall Not Be Infringed
Picture of nhracecraft
posted Hide Post
I was following along until he got here...
quote:
The financial crisis hit—and despite some public optimism around Barack Obama’s historic victory in 2008 and attempts to break the blue-red divide—populist uprisings ensued and public discontent grew. The national mood further soured toward the end of the second Obama term and then Donald Trump won the 2016 election in an Electoral College fluke.

The rest of the political story—the “resistance”, the partisan Trump impeachment, the stolen election lies, January 6, and a second arguably more justified impeachment—is well known up until 2022 when Pew last tested this question. It hasn’t improved since as House leaders just this week launched another partisan impeachment inquiry (without a vote) into Joe Biden in response to multiple criminal cases against the former president.

Selectively bolded for emphasis to point out things that were misrepresented and/or didn't happen! Roll Eyes

IMO the match was lit during Obama's Presidency, and everything accelerated exponentially since that time. While the author seems intent on being perceived as not taking a side here, he seems to be unwilling to recognize that political and racial division was at the core of much of Obama's actions/agenda while in office. I don't recall racism being much of a thing prior to Obama, and then suddenly now, everything is racism! Further still, now the .gov has been weaponized against one half of the country, whom had been labeled domestic terrorists by that government and who are guilty of nothing more that not being part of and/or in lockstep with the party in power! Looking back it's as if the 'Fundamental Transformation of this Country' Obama proclaimed was intended to destroy it from within!


____________________________________________________________

If Some is Good, and More is Better.....then Too Much, is Just Enough !!
Trump 2024....Make America Great Again!
"May Almighty God bless the United States of America" - parabellum 7/26/20
Live Free or Die!
 
Posts: 9652 | Location: New Hampshire | Registered: October 29, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Frangas non Flectes
Picture of P220 Smudge
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Ryanp225:
The only logical answer is to hate both sides.
It's one entity anyway just working to make the people divided.


A divided populace isn't going to direct much energy at the power brokers pulling the strings. While much of the article reads true to me, I think there's a class above the two tribes.


______________________________________________
“There are plenty of good reasons for fighting, but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God Almighty Himself hates with you, too.”
 
Posts: 17883 | Location: Sonoran Desert | Registered: February 10, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Peace through
superior firepower
Picture of parabellum
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by selogic:
Too much to read ..
Don't post stuff like that. If you can't be bothered, there's no need to be rude.
 
Posts: 110047 | Registered: January 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Drill Here, Drill Now
Picture of tatortodd
posted Hide Post
Good article.

One thing the author only touched the surface was the impact of tech companies and their algorithms. IMO, the top 3 tech company algorithm impacts:
  • Instead of seeing everything from people/entities you are following/friends with the algorithm made it to selectively share what the user saw. This further fed the tribalism.
  • On top of that, the algorithm also shows users content for people/entities your aren't following or friends with. They bucketed people and directed content for that demographic thus furthering the tribalism.
  • And for the coup de gras, the algorithm censors information (some of it by .gov request) so that people don't see the bad behavior of their own side or if they do it's a white washed version.



    Ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity

    DISCLAIMER: These are the author's own personal views and do not represent the views of the author's employer.
  •  
    Posts: 23949 | Location: Northern Suburbs of Houston | Registered: November 14, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
    No More
    Mr. Nice Guy
    posted Hide Post
    quote:
    Originally posted by ArtieS:

    Nonetheless, it is up to us to rise to Lincoln's challenge ... that "We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained it must not break our bonds of affection..."
    A


    With due respect to Mr Lincoln, one cannot be friends with people who are hostile to one's liberties and who view one as an enemy to be destroyed. This is no longer about tax rates, should we put money more into a new school buildings or into road repair, or foreign policy, or other mundane issues.

    I am predisposed to see the good in people. Too much so really, to my detriment sometimes. I prefer a dispute be resolved with an honest meeting of the minds rather than an unhappy stalemate, even if my side is favored while in stalemate. I wish for everyone to be happy and prosperous, and for others to desire the same. We can debate and disagree on how that might be achieved, but at least we would be seeking the same outcomes.

    Perhaps I have been brainwashed into tribalism, but my perception of our society over my lifetime (62 yrs old) is that the radical activist left has been pushing hard to force their agenda onto everyone. It used to be a "live and let live" attitude, classically liberal, that guided society. I think the big change is not so much the details of the disagreement between the citizens, but that a large portion of the left has come to believe it is righteous to destroy those to their right. They believe it is ok to take away rights such as free speech, to imprison people for their political affiliation, nullify their vote, take away their parental rights, etc.

    A sizable portion of the left no longer desires debate or fair political competition. This is an existential threat we've seen played out in history where tyranny takes over and people suffer immensely.
     
    Posts: 9855 | Location: On the mountain off the grid | Registered: February 25, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
    Wait, what?
    Picture of gearhounds
    posted Hide Post
    While the article has several good points, it has clear bias for the left, and against the right. By focusing on Trump’s so called “fluke” win, the obvious false proceedings against him. By completely glossing over Obama’s dividing the nation and his blatant attack on law enforcement and law and order. By supporting thugs and their ilk with lenient or nonexistent penalties for serious crimes. Then there is Biden’s clear criminal activity to date. The article loses most of its credibility. This is an attempt to rally the leftist base while trying to sway the opposition to accept their arguments as valid.




    “Remember to get vaccinated or a vaccinated person might get sick from a virus they got vaccinated against because you’re not vaccinated.” - author unknown
     
    Posts: 15988 | Location: Martinsburg WV | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
    Still finding my way
    Picture of Ryanp225
    posted Hide Post
    My theory on our current political and cultural battles are we are too many. There are too many people and the cultures are too diverse for humans to be comfortable and happy.
    Anthropologically speaking we are in our most natural environment when in small towns or tribes among like people who share our culture. Forcing too many different tribes together into mega-cities will bring clashes and discontent 100% of the time. It's how we are wired and how our brains have developed for many hundreds of thousands of years.
    The elites and politicians are just capitalizing on our divides for their own gain. They are parasites, nothing more. They care about us no more than a locust does for the crop field he and his just devoured.
    They are really good at it though and they are also really good at convincing 50% of the populace that they are on their side and get supported.
     
    Posts: 10851 | Registered: January 04, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
    Age Quod Agis
    Picture of ArtieS
    posted Hide Post
    quote:
    With due respect to Mr Lincoln, one cannot be friends with people who are hostile to one's liberties and who view one as an enemy to be destroyed. This is no longer about tax rates, should we put money more into a new school buildings or into road repair, or foreign policy, or other mundane issues.

    Which is exactly my point, and the point of the article. When I talk to actual liberal people, not pundits, not reporters, not listen to the media, not politicians, I realize we aren't as far apart as we are portrayed to be in actual positions.

    We are terribly far apart emotionally. My reaction to the generic "democrat" is hugely negative. But when I compare my opinion and reaction to the stereotypical democrat to my actual experience with actual democrats in the real world, I find that personally, we want the same things, and mostly agree on how to achieve them. For example, I don't know a single middle class person, (my demographic), left or right, who thinks DEI is a good thing. I also don't know anyone, left or right, who actually believes that racism has been extinguished in this country.

    So what do we do? Screeching at each other isn't going to solve the problem. Declaring the other side the unforgivable enemy isn't going to solve the problem.

    Cultural warfare will not lead to a lasting peace. We must learn to accommodate each other to the extent consistent with the Constitution, which is the foundation of the nation, and the statement of our concept of liberty.



    "I vowed to myself to fight against evil more completely and more wholeheartedly than I ever did before. . . . That’s the only way to pay back part of that vast debt, to live up to and try to fulfill that tremendous obligation."

    Alfred Hornik, Sunday, December 2, 1945 to his family, on his continuing duty to others for surviving WW II.
     
    Posts: 13039 | Location: Central Florida | Registered: November 02, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
    Uppity Helot
    posted Hide Post
    I followed Halpin’s article with some interest until the sections that NHRacecraft had emboldened.

    Halpin seems like just another partisan printing his coy leftist ruminations. Seemingly dismayed at the presence and appetite of a monster that he and his paymasters have been feeding for decades.
     
    Posts: 3218 | Location: Manheim, PA | Registered: September 04, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
    More light than heat
    Picture of Milliron
    posted Hide Post
    Good article. I couldn't agree more. I have many conservative and liberal friends and I likewise do not find that they really disagree as much as the media would have you believe. Things that one side finds infuriating tend to also create unease in their nominal political advocates as well. The body politic is capable of much more nuance than the political media establishment would have you believe. But hatred sells clicks and also attracts money from well heeled advocates. I have followed politics my entire life and have believed for a long time (at least 30 years) that we have been played against each other for the benefit of others.

    Ready for some truth?

    1. Liberals do not "hate" the right and do not want to see them "destroyed". They're not really in the business of hating anyone (and occasionally demonstrate a foolish naivete about that), not least which because many of the people they purportedly hate and want to destroy are their friends, relatives and parents. They are increasingly frightened by some of the rhetoric that has emerged from the right, and are not sure what to make of that, but are acutely aware of the danger of ignoring it. But anybody who tells you your more liberal countrymen hate you and want to destroy you is a demagogue, nothing more.

    2. Liberals aren't always sure what they think about LGBT issues. They mostly think gay people should just be left alone and have the same rights as anyone else. But most liberals I know think the whole "trans/non-binary/pronouns" thing is nonsense. They believe gender dysphoria is real, but waaaayyyy overblown today. But they aren't inclined to be up in arms about it because they think it's a fad that doesn't hurt anybody, strange as it is. To give you a personal example, my 17 year old daughter advised us in the Spring that she is dating a girl. Is she gay? She doesn't know. We don't know either. The gay folks we know don't know either. So we treat her girlfriend like another daughter and make sure they behave. They are very happy together.

    3. Every liberal I have ever met agrees that Americans should have the right to own a firearm. They believe that it is Constitutionally protected and are glad to have that right. However, they are appalled at gun violence, particularly in schools. Even some of my most politically conservative gun-owning friends are becoming concerned about it. And liberals are firmly convinced that it has gotten out of hand. My best friend's wife, a deputy Sheriff, was very nearly killed by a conservative anti-government gun nut in a close quarters gun battle two years ago (he missed, she didn't). They still love to shoot, but something seems very off to them. It's very different than it was when I began shooting in the early eighties. My father, a liberal who actively dislikes firearms, bought me my first two firearms, if that tells you anything.

    4. Liberals consider themselves fiscally conservative, too. Yes, try not to laugh. I think we can agree that both parties really, really like to spend money. Liberals have an uncomfortable tendency to look for government solutions without any thought as to how these solutions are going to funded. They do like a bigger government and I think this issue is a legitimate dispute between the parties. But they see a lot of people making a lot of money and none of it coming down to the average person. There are a lot of reasons for that, not all of them the nefarious hand of crony capitalism, which brings me to my next point.

    5. The United States has (is) changed. But it wasn't the liberals or conservatives who changed it. When older Americans state that "they don't recognize this country anymore", I have some sympathy toward that. I'm sure they don't--the U.S. has changed a lot. The U.S., having rebuilt the rest of the world post WWII, now finds itself having to compete in it, often at a disadvantage (see China). This means that the old post-Roosevelt big-government way of doing things gets unaffordable very quickly. Entitlements are going to have to change, but so is our winner-take-all brand of capitalism, or you really will see some upheaval. This is really where Trump comes in. His appeal more than anything is that he isn't the status quo--and Americans almost universally are done with the status quo. If you aren't then you are probably sitting on top of the pile.

    6. There is a rural/urban divide. What's infuriating to me is that this is where all the deliberate division comes into play. Rural areas have been decimated by #5, above. Rural people, largely white people, are poorer than they have ever been and there seems to be a never ending array of characters ready to offer up a scapegoat for that. Conservative demagogues will blame liberals, minorities, George Soros, and the Federal government. Liberals blame large corporations, the Koch Brothers, Fox News and the NRA. Rural America doesn't have one problem that couldn't be solved by an influx of $$$. But how to get it there when everybody wants cheap clothes and kitchen gadgets from China?

    So there are a lot of problems, none of which are getting solved by our "watch my hand, watch it" brand of politics. You can hate liberals all you want, but it isn't going to solve any of these problems because probably 70% of the U.S. is less conservative than the SF. You're not going to secede, and you're not going to declare war. But your input and participation is essential because I believe conservative values of tradition, honor, patriotism, and good government are American values. But nobody's going to listen as long as you have a sword in your hand. Anyway, my .02. Thanks for listening.


    _________________________

    "Age does not bring wisdom. Often it merely changes simple stupidity into arrogant conceit. It's only advantage, so far as I have been able to see, is that it spans change. A young person sees the world as a still picture, immutable. An old person has had his nose rubbed in changes and more changes and still more changes so many times that that he knows it is a moving picture, forever changing. He may not like it--probably doesn't; I don't--but he knows it's so, and knowing is the first step in coping with it."

    Robert Heinlein

     
    Posts: 8893 | Location: West Chester, Ohio | Registered: April 06, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
    Peripheral Visionary
    Picture of tigereye313
    posted Hide Post
    George Carlin was right.



    And if you like this one, pull up the one about 'The Big Club'.




     
    Posts: 11429 | Location: Texas | Registered: January 29, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
    Shall Not Be Infringed
    Picture of nhracecraft
    posted Hide Post
    quote:
    Originally posted by Milliron:
    Good article. I couldn't agree more.

    Ready for some truth?

    1. Liberals...

    [SNIP]

    So there are a lot of problems, none of which are getting solved by our "watch my hand, watch it" brand of politics. You can hate liberals all you want, but it isn't going to solve any of these problems because probably 70% of the U.S. is less conservative than the SF. You're not going to secede, and you're not going to declare war. But your input and participation is essential because I believe conservative values of tradition, honor, patriotism, and good government are American values. But nobody's going to listen as long as you have a sword in your hand. Anyway, my .02. Thanks for listening.

    Liberals aren't the problem and I don't think the VAST and OVERWHELMING majority of Conservatives hate Liberals. In fact, it would be un-serious to think otherwise! It's the Leftists (Those formerly known as Progressives that have now 'come out of the closet' and aren't trying to hide it anymore) that are the problem! In fact, the only problem to consider with Liberals is that they support, AND vote for people that are hell bent on the Fundamental Transformation of this Country...People that seemingly Hate America, and Hate Americans! It seems that these people can't be reasoned with either...


    ____________________________________________________________

    If Some is Good, and More is Better.....then Too Much, is Just Enough !!
    Trump 2024....Make America Great Again!
    "May Almighty God bless the United States of America" - parabellum 7/26/20
    Live Free or Die!
     
    Posts: 9652 | Location: New Hampshire | Registered: October 29, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
    Domari Nolo
    Picture of Chris17404
    posted Hide Post
    quote:
    Originally posted by Milliron:

    Ready for some truth?



    Great post. One of the best I've read here. Thank you.



     
    Posts: 2352 | Location: York, PA | Registered: May 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
    Mistake Not...
    Picture of Loswsmith
    posted Hide Post
    quote:
    Originally posted by Milliron:
    Anyway, my .02. Thanks for listening.


    Thank you for posting this. You aren't alone in thinking this.


    ___________________________________________
    Life Member NRA & Washington Arms Collectors

    Mistake not my current state of joshing gentle peevishness for the awesome and terrible majesty of the towering seas of ire that are themselves the milquetoast shallows fringing my vast oceans of wrath.

    Velocitas Incursio Vis - Gandhi
     
    Posts: 2118 | Location: T-town in the 253 | Registered: January 16, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
    Member
    Picture of RichardC
    posted Hide Post
    Just for the sake of this discussion, if we define liberals as having voted Democrat in 2020, amongst their other attributes,

    If I were to believe that Joe Biden actually won the 2020 election by a preponderance of legitimate votes, then I have to believe that enough liberals turned out to vote for Joe Biden, either

    A) Because they liked him based on his history, and believed he'd be a good President, and are happy with his performance, or

    B) They turned out because they HATED Donald Trump (and me and all the other Constitutionalist/conservative MAGA types), and the values we stand for, and believe are good for the USA SO much, that they voted in numbers unprecedented in American history.

    Being as I've not found Biden voters who tell me they voted Democrat in 2020 and are happy with Biden's efforts, but can only respond with illogical, emotional, He's Not Trump replies ...


    I have to go with B.

    This message has been edited. Last edited by: RichardC,


    ____________________



     
    Posts: 16315 | Location: Florida | Registered: June 23, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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