A question to the LEOs, how much of their lack of effectiveness was due to the weapon itself, vs how you were allowed to use it?

quote:

Originally posted by cas:
A question to the LEOs, how much of their lack of effectiveness was due to the weapon itself, vs how you were allowed to use it?

It was due to the weapon itself. The old baton, wether nylon, hickory or some other stuff had weight to it and imparted the strike with something behind it. The new collapsable batons have neither the weight or the area to impart pain across a large area like the bigger/wider baton.

With both weapons, we were not allowed to strike at head,neck, joints because they would cause grave bodily injury (breaking an elbow or a hand would be a lifetime problem-and hitting the head was deadly force). But if you hit someone on the calf with a straight wooden baton, you’d usually only had to hit him once before he figured it out (unless they were on pcp or something ) the new asp batons only have a small area where we were taught to hit with and it’s very thin and not heavy( like the thickness of you pinkie, 3/8”)and people just kept fighting even when they were not dusted…the asp just didn’t pass muster.

The old baton was 1” wide, the asp is 3/8” and the asp is marketed as being 21”..but you can see that it isn’t. The straight baton is 24”

No, I don't mean in comparison to an old school night stick, that's irrelevant because someone like the OP isn't going to carry one around for self defense.

Whenever I've seen video of the police using collapsible batons, they were striking they guy in the legs, in the arms etc. But as Joe citizen carrying one around for protection, and you try to harm me, I'm going to hit you in the face, in the head and in the throat with it. All things police department policy would no doubt frown on for an officer to do, as you say. So in terms of the OP's question, is it the weapon or the ROE that are the problem? Sounds like the latter.

Your peper spray wouldn't be very effective if you were only allowed to spray it on peoples legs.

Ah, old school straight hickory baton. Good for a wood shampoo but that's really old school and didn't look good on TV and sometimes, left a mark; Saps were nice. Beaver tail or spring loaded carried just behind the leg in that little uniform pocket but that went the way of the dodo bird and sometimes left a bump; choke outs were really effective and no long term effects (mostly) but chocking out folks also didn't look good on video;never got into the ASP and I left the job before the yellow guns of fun (Mr. Sparky) were issued. Guess that leaves shooting and just turning the radio down and driving over to get a donut and some coffee while the division goes to sh*t..

It’s the application, not the tool.

A simple lead sap worked wonders back in the “Good old days” of policing.

Back when the application was upside the dummy’s head. Problem solved.

You hit someone in the face with a collapsible baton, it’s deadly force. Same as shooting them in the face. Keep that in mind.

We had the expandable PR-24’s in the military police and they were just garbage. The handle was aluminum but the tip was Fiber glass. It would break before a bone would, trust me even if it was strong enough you’d never do it. We didn’t have OC spray in Germany so all I had was my M9 and my nerfed pr24. Needless to say I kicked a lot of drunks in the balls. At least that works reliably, even saw a girl get a cooter kick from one of the polizei and I still giggle thinking about it 9 years later. I never thought it would work on girls as well as guys

quote:

is it the weapon or the ROE that are the problem?

The ROE is the ROE regardless if you are a cop or a citizen. You can’t just whap someone in the noggin with either because it causes grave bodily injury or death. I mean you may do it in the moment, but you’ll get charged and any DA will strive to hold a citizen to the same rules as the cops(even though they aren’t trained) because they are easy to explain to the jury. So that being equal. It’s the actual weapon. The old style straight wooden or nylon baton is much better tool than the new expandable baton.

As an aside, saps and blackjacks work too. But due to ROE you can’t strike people in the head, where they work the best.

And I get it, no one is gonna carry around a wooden baton. I have both types of batons and I carry neither for CCW, because it’s foolish. They are useless when used within the ROE of your local DA who will be the one prosecuting you (and trust me, DAs are lawyers and have their own opinions) When carrying OC is so much better. As someone else pointed out OC is a crowd pleaser…everyone else in the jury has seen it and it doesn’t leave lasting marks or serious injury. You can empty a can into someone’s face and run away. You don’t have to try and decontaminate them or arrest them. Even if it doesn’t work 100% you can then move from less than lethal to lethal and you can explain you use of the gun easier when you’ve already tried LTL.

quote:

Originally posted by cas:
But as Joe citizen carrying one around for protection, and you try to harm me, I'm going to hit you in the face, in the head and in the throat with it.

LEO or not, striking someone in the head/face/throat with a baton is deadly force. If you're in a situation where you're legally justified to use deadly force because you're defending yourself or another from imminent serious bodily injury or death, then there are much safer (for yourself) and much more effective methods to do so than trying to hit someone with a small stick at arms' reach.

Like a firearm.

And?

So is stabbing someone or shooting them. There may be people and places where someone could carry a baton, or a knife, but not a gun.

The Department took away my issued PR24 years ago and issued me an ASP in it's place. The positive is that it a great door knocker. Before knocking with my ASP I will always look for the tell-tell small dings left in the doorframe that lets me know that we have been there before. It has saved my knuckles countless times. For everything else it is pretty much useless.

When I first stated I had a wooden straight baton, that was absolutely wonderful, and a sap (still have it and still say it was the best impact weapon I ever used). I really miss my old baton and but still have my sap. Shortly after I started on the road, we made the switch to the PR-24. While you could do some things with it that my old baton couldn't do, it lacked a certain something when it came to strikes. While assigned to motors I was issued an expandable PR-24 that basically sucked. At least with the original metal on I could prop up the arm at a railroad crossing when it malfunctioned. The expandable one couldn't even do that. Then the ASP came along. While it was good for knocking on doors, I was less than impressed with its strike capability. After being issued the expandable PR-24 (and told I could no longer carry my sap), my impact weapon of choice was my full size rechargeable MagLite.

Although I’m not going to bother confirming Colorado law now, over the years living in different states I’ve read the applicable statutes and as I recall most had prohibitions against striking weapons that could have been interpreted to include something as obviously intended for the purpose of being a club as an expanding baton.

In addition, I’m always somewhat bemused by the idea of someone who is old and/or decrepit relying on a defensive weapon that requires physical strength and dexterity to be effective. I cannot but wonder what sort of defensive situation is being imagined when someone thinks that a stick of any sort is going to work. Yes, if it’s an aggressive 35 pound Schnauzer, perhaps, but a drunken 220 pound 6'2" thug whom we’ve pissed off or who thinks he needs our money more than we do? Better than nothing? Maybe, but many people have made their problems worse by believing they were better armed than they actually were. I have often seen things like canes touted as legal to carry weapons and how trained experts can supposedly accomplish amazing feats with them, but how often does that happen in real life? If they do, I’d really be curious about the details of such incidents.

We still carry an expandable baton, but it's mostly for looks. IMO, they are mostly useless, unless the act of expanding it diffuses the situation (highly unlikely). The OC we carry is pretty potent and, during training, we were sprayed and had to walk to different stations and perform different techniques. It's effective in disabling most people, but does not work instantaneously like in the movies. Situational awareness and the ability to get away is most effective.

Personal experience tells me that collapsible batons suck for the cop, leather saps suck for the bad guy.