Before anyone tells me to google this, I have tried and gotten confused on it. I would like to get the needed license to get the major firearm license that would enable me to own most any weapon. It's like an FFL3 license right? IT enables the purchase of machine guns and other curios right? I'd like to own a good collection of them, and some of them like a mg42 sorta is a machine gun. Anyhelp on this?

Why do you need a FFL to purchase and own any NFA items?
All you need is to have bottomless pockets.

So you dont need the license for that? Hence my confusion. Thought you needed some weird license for it.

First you need to get a FFL. Type 01 (dealer) and type 07 (manufacturer) are the most common. Then you apply to be a special occupational tax payer. This would allow you to deal in title II (so-called "class 3" weapons). Other than a C&R, license, however, all types of FFL require that you actually "engage in the business" of selling firearms. I'm other words, if your sole intent is enhancing a personal collection, an FFL is not for you.

If you still want to pursue it, you'll need to get approval from your local zoning folks, start a business, get a federal EIN and whatever local licenses you need, then proceed with the ATF. The FFL itself is cheap enough, but the SOT portion is $500 per calendar year.

I'd suggest reading some how-to guides on the internet and/or buying a guide like FFL123 or EasyFFL.

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:
Why do you need a FFL to purchase and own any NFA items?
All you need is to have bottomless pockets.

As I understand it, based on info from some time ago, it takes up to a year to get permission from gubbermint for that.

Yeah... It's not that easy. DaBigBR gave a pretty good outline it appears. You'll probably need a brick and mortar store front too, so there's that cost.

Buying something like a machine gun doesn't require a FFL. You just have to go through a licensed NFA dealer, and jump through some hoops with paperwork, tax stamps, and long wait times.

I think you're confusing a Class 3 SOT, which is someone who deals in the sale and transfer of NFA items like silencers and machine guns, with an 03 FFL, which is a collector of Curios and Relics.

An 03 C&R FFL is the only FFL that you can get without being in the business of making or selling guns (which would require business licenses, a business location, business zoning, etc.)

Anyone can get an 03 C&R FFL, which allows you to have guns that are at least 50 years old (or otherwise identified as having historical value) shipped directly to your home, rather than you having to go through a local gun shop to handle the transfer.

Basically, it's geared towards military surplus collectors, although there are plenty of commercial firearms that are at least 50 years old. If you buy a lot of older guns, a C&R FFL is well worth it. It's a simple process, and it's $30 for a 3 year license.

In the case of things like MG42s, which are older than 50 years but are still machine guns (no "sorta" about it), even if you have a C&R FFL you still have to jump through all the NFA hoops with paperwork, tax stamp, and a long wait.

Once you say "me to own" you are not talking about an FFL. 12131 has the correct comment. Buy what you want (bring big money) get the appropriate NFA paperwork done, wait like a lab for a ball and be happy.

You don't have to have an FFL to own machine guns. Each and every one requires a tax stamp, and a background check which takes the better part of a year, at present. There is no "Class 3 license" that allows you to own machine guns.

And unless you plan to be "engaged in the business", you will be denied an FFL. It's not a vehicle for just collecting cool toys.

A type 03 FFL is for curios and relics. Now, some of these are indeed machine guns, but you still need to go through the tax stamp process for each of these, you just don't have to use and pay a dealer to handle the transfer for you.

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:
Once you say "me to own" you are not talking about an FFL. 12131 has the correct comment. Buy what you want (bring big money) get the appropriate NFA paperwork done, wait like a lab for a ball and be happy.

Yup. Why everyone makes things more complicated than they need to be. OP said nothing about business. He wants "to own" NFA stuff. Any of them. There is no FFL required to own them.

In addition to the 01 or 07 FFL and annual SOT, you can't go buy any machinegun you want.

Fully transferable MGs must have been manufactured prior to May 19, 1986 and be in the National Firearms Act Transfer Record. This would be purchasable without the FFL/SOT, but cost tens of thousands of dollars.

The are also a few hundred "pre-May '86 dealer sample" MGs that can be purchased only by an FFL/SOT. These guns are also thousands to tens of thousands of dollars.

Any MG manufactured after May 19, 1986 can be acquired by a FFL/SOT only if they have a "demonstration letter" from a government agency requesting a demonstration of a MG by specific manufacturer, model, and caliber. Then, and only then, can the FFL/SOT purchase ONE such gun. Demo letters are not handed out to just anyone, because BATFE monitors that like hawks looking for .gov agencies (usually police or sheriff departments) abusing this authority. BLACKWATER got in deep shit because of a very cozy relationship with a local sheriff (who also got in trouble with BATFE) who gave BLACKWATER something like 30 demo letters for the same type of gun.

Bottom line: if you ain't rich, rent MGs from ranges that do that. It's cheaper and easier.

The other thing that you may not realize is that machine guns are extremely expensive, in several ways.

They're expensive up front. Even the very cheapest civilian-transferable MGs are over $5k. (That's for a crude, cheap submachine gun like a MAC-10.) The vast majority of MGs are significantly pricier than that, especially when it comes to popular iconic guns with historical significance. Think $30k/$40k/$50k and up.

Currently, a MG42 will run you about $55,000, if you can find one for sale. (Knowing your job, fatmanspencer, I'm guessing that's more than you make in a year.)

Then they're expensive to own and shoot too. You have to figure the cost of all the ammo you'll shoot at 1200 RPM. Considering that the cheapest 8mm Mauser ammo is pushing 50 cents per round, with most being more, you're looking at $600 (or more) per minute of sustained full auto fire in a MG42.

So even if you were to save up and buy a MG42, you'd also need to be able to afford to regularly blow a few grand worth of ammo just for shits and giggles, without batting an eye.

And after that, you still have to factor in other stuff like spare parts, accessories, spare barrels, extra insurance and security measures to protect your massive investment, etc.

I care only for the old ones. I'll be around long enough for the 50 year rule to see me for some of the current products, so maybe then I'll get them.

I'm fine with not shooting them, or maybe ten to ensure proper working, but thats about it. I also was curious how it would handle old imports, since some may be made with exotic/endangered woods. Or like an ivory handled pistol.

As a The Rougish One noted, feeding a MG is expensive.

About ten years ago I did the arithmetic on owning an M-16.

With the cost of the gun, the NFA tax, sales tax, cost of ammo and sundries, if I fired it for ten minutes (i.e., 10 minutes of the gun actually spitting out bullets) it would cost about $2,600 per minute.

I decided there are better ways to spend that kinda money. I could get back into general aviation. I could gamble. I could buy a fast car or motorcycle. I could visit Paris for two days. Heck I figured I could get a top of the line hooker for less than $2,600 per minute.

Plenty of blow to go with that high-end hooker, too.

quote:

Originally posted by fatmanspencer:
I care only for the old ones. I'll be around long enough for the 50 year rule to see me for some of the current products, so maybe then I'll get them.

The 50 years to be C&R eligible rule does not apply to any MG manufactured after May 19, 1986. You cannot legally purchase a post-86 MG without a FFL/SOT and demo letter. Period. Full stop. No exceptions.

BTW, with it looking like BATFE is going to declare "bump fire stocks" to be a MG part subject to the NFA, owners of those devices will likely have no option other than destroying them, even though BATFE said the device was not a MG, because the May 19, 1986 cut off is based on the statutory definition of what is and is not a manufacturable, possessable, or transferable MG.

THAT is how hard the fed.gov views the May '86 cutoff.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
Plenty of blow to go with that high-end hooker, too.

That's kinda an unspoken part of the package, innait?

quote:

I'll be around long enough for the 50 year rule to see me for some of the current products, so maybe then I'll get them.

You do realise that a C&R does not apply to Class III.

quote:

Originally posted by rscalzo:

quote:

I'll be around long enough for the 50 year rule to see me for some of the current products, so maybe then I'll get them.

You do realise that a C&R does not apply to Class III.

There are pre-86 C&R MGs, but they are still transferred via a Form 4 with the $200 stamp.

Spenser - find a class 3 dealer and talk with him. He will have “transferable” machine guns you can own. Your purchase will have to be approved on several levels before you get to take your new, expensive toy home. The local police, where you live, will have to give their OK. Local and state laws will have to permit ownership (probably can’t own in California, Wash DC and NYC). State police will need to sign off as you being “OK”. Then the ATFE will go through federal records to see if there is anything there where you aren’t permitted to own one. After passing all that (about 9-12 months of time) and their approval they will issue you a “transfer tax stamp” that costs you $200. This Stamp is a confirmation that the ownership of the weapon has changed to you. This you keep as long as you own your weapon and show it to law enforcement as requested. I believe, once in your possession the ATFE can “ask” to see the weapon once a year and see/know that you are storing it safely.

Also ask the dealer about the pros and cons of having the class 3 guns in a Trust. This allows you to have some kind of “group ownership” so other family members can own, possess, shoot the weapon without the transfer fee and it can be handed down to younger Trust members as well. I don’t know all the details, but it seems to be a pretty good way to go these days.

For price ideas, Gunbroker has them listed for sale on auction. Julia and Rock Island auctions have sales on occasion as well.