LORAN has been shut down in the US since 2010 and since around then for most of the rest of the world.

The exact mechanism of computing a location is a bit different, but conceptually, LORAN is basically just GPS with low-frequency radio towers instead of satellites. Using low-frequency radio allows the signal to follow the curvature of the earth (sort of, the reason is more technical, but that’s what happens) and gives better range.

LORAN didn’t really help you if you were way out in the middle of the ocean, because it only worked within a few hundred miles of the ground stations.

With that said, there has been some interest in reviving a modernized LORAN system because of vulnerabilities of satellite navigation systems, but it hasn’t happened.

I don’t know enough about the nitty gritty details of aviation to answer the questions about whether commercial pilots and flights have the training and equipment to deal with total satellite navigation failure on long flights over open ocean, especially, as you point out, to small islands where “eh, keep us pointed east and we’ll hit Europe somewhere” isn’t good enough.

Given how anal retentive all the aviation regulatory bodies are, I suspect they’re supposed to be able to do it, and that most probably can.

All that said, I think GPS just getting “turned off” is unlikely, given there are redundant satellite constellations operated by the US, Russia, the EU, and China (I think China’s constellation is technically still a couple of satellites away from full global coverage). Unless they ALL turn off, nothing is really accomplished.

Maybe more likely would be something like going back to the “selective availability” deal of the 90s. The US military has access to a separate, encrypted GPS signal, and “selective availability” was intentional inaccuracy introduced into the unencrypted civilian GPS signal. Selective availability, not computing power, is why GPS systems were limited to 200-300 yard accuracy in the 90s.

Of course, if we are in a world of hypotheticals, someone could just blow up all of everyone’s satellites or back them or something.

quote:

Originally posted by maladat:
Jesus, who pissed in your cheerios?

You did, and you've done it again. I pity the stupidity, but the ignorance is annoying.

You managed to quote me, include my words inside the confines of your post, and still get it entirely wrong...but then having fucked that up once, you did it again. Quoted the same post again, and got it wrong again. Good god.

Comprehension is not your strong suit, clearly, but seeing as you insist...

You QUOTED me saying:

quote:

Originally posted by maladat:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by sns3guppy:
If your Bushnell backtrack isn't giving you timely information, consider the age and the limitations of the device. The backtrack will do something you cell phone won't, however; it will still provide location information when you can't get a cell signal.

Let's try to use simple language so it doesn't go over your head a third time, and remember, YOU brought this up. Twice, now. Apparently this is important to you.

The Bushnell Backtrack is NOT a cell phone. It doesn't need, or get a cell phone signal. It does, however, receive GPS signals, and provides navigation information.

When a cell phone is not receiving a signal and can provide no navigational information, the Bushnell Backtrack can. It can do this, you see, because it doesn't use a cell phone signal. Despite your saying otherwise, I never made any statement that inferred or said that it does. In fact, I specifically stated that it is NOT a cell phone, and doesn't rely on cell signals. It was a stupid comparison to a cell phone, but the poster to whom I responded (not you) made the comparison, so we used his comparison.

To recap, in language that hopefully won't go over your head (again):

Look, look, see the Bushnll Backtrack. Pretty, pretty Backtrack. See it receive GPS signals. Receive, Backtrack. Receive!

See the cell phone. The cell phone needs a signal (to use his installed map application). There is no cell signal. Poor, poor cellphone. See the Backtrack. It is still receiving a signal. Go, Backtrack, go!

See Timmy. Timmy needs to find camp. Timmy tries his cell phone. No cell signal. Poor, poor Timmy. Timmy is fucked.

Wait! Timmy remembers. Remember, Timmy. Remember! Timmy has a Bushnell Backtrack. Timmy looks at the Backtrack. Look, Timmy. Look! The Backtrack gets a GPS signal. Get, Backtrack. Get!

Timmy can get a signal and navigate, even though no cell signal is available. Timmy's cell phone is useless. See Timmy's useless piece of shit boat anchor dead weight cell phone. See Timmy remember Tirod's post suggesting that the cell is more accurate because of cell signals. See Timmy swear.

See Timmy remember sns3guppy explaining that the cell phone will get a GPS signal, but needs an application to use it. Timmy didn't get a program that does that. Timmy's cell phone is fucked. Timmy's Bushnell Backtrack is not. Timmy's Bushnell Backtrack doesn't need a cell signal. Timmy's Backtrack doesn't receive a Signal. Timmy's Backtrack isn't a cell phone. No shit, Timmy. No shit.

Timmy sees his Backtrack receiving GPS information. Timmy can navigate, even with no cell signal available. Timmy can use his Backtrack to find camp. Maybe when Timmy gets back to his prissy little shiny Airstream, parked within sight of a mall in the valley, he can get a cell signal. Maybe Timmy can look at his cell phone's map function and figure out how to get off the mountain.

Next time, Timmy will get an application that can take advantage of the GPS functions that his cell phone receives, like Bobby, who is back at camp roasting marshamallows and making time with Timmy's girlfriend, Suzy. Luckily Timmy has GPS.

Tear-jerking, emotive, dramatic, I know, and perhaps too many words with more than one syllable, but did you follow, or are you going to try this a third time?

1. Cellular navigation is NOT superior to GPS (there's a reason it's not the standard for ships, aircraft, and the military...but what the hell, if it helps find Quickymart from one's dead-end street, it must be, right?

2. Most devices today do still have GPS receivers or capability to receive: to use the GPS information, an application is typically needed.

3. Devices that receive GPS information can do so without a cell signal, even in the middle of the ocean (where not surprisingly, there are NO cell towers).

4. Devices that do not use cell signals (Bushnell Backtrack, for example) do not need cell signals. Where such devices are GPS receivers that use GPS information to prevent navigational information...they continue to work where there are no cell towers.

5. That iPhone or iPad will get GPS navigation signals in airplane mode, with no cellular information available, with cell service shut off, and it will do it thousands of miles from the nearest cell tower, with such specific accuracy that one could navigate several thousand miles using that little hand held device, in an emergency, and arrive over a precise point in space, using only the GPS signals, so long as one has an application installed which can use and process that GPS information.

6. The cell phone that has GPS capability does NOT need cellular service to provide accurate information, as a GPS receiver, IF it has the program (application) available to use and present that GPS information. It will show real-time, accurate position on a moving map, and can calculate altitude, velocity, course, etc.

7. A cell phone which does have software installed to allow it to use and present navigation signals won't be much use if one isn't getting a cell signal, even though the phone is quite capable and does actually receive very accurate GPS information. In that case, while the cell isn't doing shit to get Timmy to camp, the Bushnell Backtrack, or one of hundreds of other similar devices, can still provide information received and presented via GPS.

8. One can get off one's lazy ass and install applications on one's phone that enable extremely accurate navigation with, or without cellular data. Failure to do so does not mean that cellular data is more accurate than GPS. It does not mean that the phone or device doesn't have GPS capability. It doesn't mean that GPS is less accurate. It does not mean that the cell phone requires cellular service to generate a position or navigational information. It only means one hasn't taken the steps to use that information.

Get it yet, or are you going to go for round three? What the fuck? Seriously.

quote:

Originally posted by OKCGene:
I have often wondered what would happen if, for example, a war, a big one, broke out and goverments/agencies decided to turn off the GPS.

What happens to airliners flying long long routes, especially over the oceans, and just like that, boom zip! the signal is lost.

How the F are they going to make it to a safe landing, with limited fuel?

On a long international flight, the basic fuel requirement is enough fuel to get to the destination, then to the alternate airport, then for 30 minutes at 1,500' above the alternate field altitude, at holding speed. In addition, it must have enough fuel to fly for a period of 10% of the total duration of the time between departure and initial destination...this is a requirement in addition to the fuel for the trip. If the flight is to an island with no alternates (eg, island), then the flight must carry enough fuel to get to the destination, plus two additional hours. Additionally, fuel must take into account anticipated weather, traffic delays, etc. Bottom line, the flight must depart with enough fuel.

On a long range flight, in most cases, two or ore long range navigation systems are used, often at least three. Some operators are authorized to do long range navigation with a single system for the "class II portion," or that portion that has no surface-based (ground-based) navigation aids.

Everything today uses GPS and GNSS for position updating. This is not, however, always available
GPS is routinely degraded in some locations, and there are certain locations where it goes away completely. There is a place in the pacific that often sees loss of GPS data, and some areas in Russia and east of Russia, that it also occurs with some regularity.

As you noted, long range aircraft use INS, or today, IRS (Inertial Reference System...it uses laser ring gyros, rather than some of the older inertial systems, and very sensitive accelerometers. This data is used not only for navigation, but provides the information to autopilots, aircraft instruments, braking systems, flight control functions like yaw dampers, and so on. In the case of a loss of GPS, the flight can continue on the IRS system; most long range aircraft use a triple IRS.

IRS degrades with time: the position given an IRS unit will decrease in accuracy over the subsequent hours. Regular updating resets that clock. In other words if one has six hours before the degredation of an IRS position will reach a tolerance or limit, that time begins at the gate when the IRS is first initialized, and the aircraft first moved. It starts going downhill. If something can continue to keep updating that IRS position, however, the clock doesn't begin until the updating source goes away (GPS, for example).

In flight, the position is constantly updated: IRS positions are compared and combined. Drift rates and errors are considered and unreliable data excluded. Additional updating sources are used, such as ground based navigation aids, typically dual or triple GPS input, DME/DME data, and so on. These all keep updating the position until the aircraft has entered Class II airspace...that place where the aircraft is no longer in the service volume (reception area) of ground based signals. From then on, it relies on IRS, which continues to be updated by GPS. When the GPS fails, the aircraft continues on IRS signals, and the clock for a degraded signal begins when the GPS is lost.

If a particular system has six hours on IRS of useable time before reaching a predicted tolerance or limit of inaccuracy, then that six hours begins when the GPS quits, or other updating information is no longer available. In some locations, ground based navigation signals are available from island positions.

Part of long range navigation includes a navigation accuracy check prior to coast-out and another at coast-in, checking all IRS, the combined position ("triple mix"), GPS and other data, and making accurate confirmations while passing abeam ground based navaids, checking all three altimeters against each other and in some cases ground sources, and so on.

In addition to all of that, today ADS-B and ADS-C provide some measure of observation and monitoring, and capability, and aircraft systems talk between aircraft (TCAS, or traffic collision avoidance system). Airborne radar can provide some limited navigational information. Almost all crews today use iPads with charts, nav programs, manuals and data, etc, and these also pick up GPS signals. Obviously, that doesn't help if there's no GPS signal.

Part of every flight is a RAIM analysis, which is prediction on GPS availability based on numerous factors, as well as a thorough, detailed check of notices to airmen.

While it is possible for a satellite to fail, they're uber-reliable, and there are numerous satellites in view at any given time; the GPS receiver is constantly evaluating each one for signal integrity, picking up new ones, dropping others.

Aircraft don't feature human navigators any more: the crew is expected to do that. Celestial navigation is no longer taught. LoRaN was useful years ago, and available all over North America, and was a commonly used signal in aviation, but is gone. Dead reckoning, involving time, speed, and distance to calculate a position, is provided on the flight plan; every waypoint (there may be hundreds on a given route) includes wind information, heading, etc, and this information is kept updated continuously in flight.

When GPS navigation becomes unavailable, IRS continues, and I have had complete loss of that, too. In that case, the fall-back was heading and time. One at least one occasion, the flight management computers both failed, including standby navigation, and the only nav left on board other than needle-ball-airspeed was an iPad (which was still receiving GPS).

ETOPS is a certification that allows an aircraft to operate with two engines, a given distance from a diversion airport. It applies to aircraft like the 767 or 777, and ETOPS certification comes in one-hour increments, up to 4 hours. That is, if an operator has 180 minute ETOPS authorization, the operator can be three hours from a suitable diversion landing site. Numerous requirements come with that, including weather updates at designated points, navigation and communication capabilities, and a closely monitored track history of reliability of engines, nav and instruments, etc. Additional capability of the airborne use of auxiliary power to provide pressurization, hydraulics, and electricity is required. Dedicated inspections and checks by maintenance personnel are required, with logbook signoffs, within three hours of departure on ETOPS flights. Other requirements exist.

Airborne communication is available on long distance flights using ACARS to talk to the company through the flight management computers, as well as CPDLC to talk to air traffic control or oceanic agencies. HF radios are used for voice communications.

During any given point in a flight, equal time points have been calculated; prior to the ETP, a diversion will be made to airport xxx. After the EDP, diversion will be to yyy, and the ETP represents the place where there's equal time going to either one. At any given moment, we know where the alternate is, the distance and heading to get there, time, fuel burn, expected fuel on arrival, expected reserves, etc. Over every waypoint, we check fuel and time, and keep a continually updated log of any trends of changes. Loss of nav information means going to a headind mode, and then adjusting as required until nav can be re-established. Diversion procedures exist globally that involve an initial turn at least 30 degrees off course, offsetting five miles and climbing or descending 500', before making a turn to the alternate or ETP diversion field, and getting below the RVSM altitudes used by almost all airborne traffic. All aircraft are monitoring frequencies 121.5 and 123.45 at all times, and immediate communication with them is required, too.

A flight headed to a distant island, with loss of nav information, may continue if adequate navigational capability still exists. If a complete loss of data occurs, then a diversion is warranted; a no-brainer if this occurs prior to the ETP. If it occurs after, then it's going to be a matter of considering the best option based on weather and the available alternates. A destination in the clear with visual approaches is better than diverting to an alternate that requires an instrument approach to low minimums, if nav capability has been lost.

There is so much nav information available, most of the time, that the possibility of a complete nav loss is remote. Procedures exist for nav loss, including excluding spurious information (deleting GPS inputs from the nav solution, for example).

On oceanic routing, a standard procedure is a ten minute check after passing each waypoint. This allows the airplane to get far enough away from the waypoint that a fresh position check will reveal any deviation from the planned routing, before it becomes excessive, and just far enough to make it obvious on a chart or display. Some operators still do this on paper plotting charts, and increasingly this is done electronically on maps (often on iPads with accurate map information).

The sextant port and nav dome (celestial) is gone on current aircraft. We used to have them, though sextants and celestial equipment disappeared a long time ago. Airborne wind data is quite accurate; every aircraft in the flight levels provides that data around the world, which enables extremely accurate modeling for weather. Additionally, we can receive wind and weather updates anywhere in the world via ACARS and insert it right into the flight plan at each anticipated flight level. This in turn makes it possible for more accurate fuel calculation, and planning.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
When a cell phone is not receiving a signal and can provide no navigational information, ...

To recap, in language that hopefully won't go over your head (again):

...

See the cell phone. The cell phone needs a signal (to use his installed map application). There is no cell signal. Poor, poor cellphone. See the Backtrack. It is still receiving a signal. Go, Backtrack, go!

See Timmy. Timmy needs to find camp. Timmy tries his cell phone. No cell signal. Poor, poor Timmy. Timmy is fucked...

Your bullshit arrogant attitude would be a lot more excusable if you weren't entirely wrong on this point.

I've used both my iPhone SE (2020) and, before that, my Motorola Moto G in backwoods areas with no cellular coverage at all with no problem. Will Google or Apple Maps work? No. They do rely on a constant network feed to retrieve map tiles. But if you install the proper mapping app, one with which you can download and store maps, just like a dedicated GPS thingy: No problem.

See sns3guppy. sns3guppy tries to be snide and arrogant. No clue. Poor, poor sns3guppy.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:

See the cell phone. The cell phone needs a signal (to use his installed map application). There is no cell signal. Poor, poor cellphone.

I no longer use ForeFlight, switched to WingX Pro. When I did use ForeFlight, I downloaded sectional charts, approach plates, and IFR enroute charts to both iPad and cell phone. I was able to use all navigation functions without a cellular connection on both iPad and the phone that was a back-up.

The iPad works for this just fine with no SIM installed, so there is not even a possibility of a cellular data connection. I also have an older iPhone that has been retired from phone service, I use it as sort of a miniature iPad. No active SIM, no data plan, no cellular service, and it runs the GPS-based navigation apps just fine, as long as I have downloaded the appropriate map data via wifi prior to departure.

Same with WingX Pro (I switched because WingX Pro is free on request for all CFIs (flight instructors) and military pilots).

There are also numerous apps for ground navigation (driving) that support pre-loaded maps and do not require a cellular connection for GPS navigation.

snugglepuppy did make it clear that a cell phone/iPad other cullular device, can navigate without a cell signal if it does have a GPS aware navigation app installed. But not if the installed app is not GPS aware/enabled.

He did say it that way.

And he knows I am not his bestist friend forever on the whole danged internet.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:

quote:

Originally posted by maladat:
Jesus, who pissed in your cheerios?

You did, and you've done it again. I pity the stupidity, but the ignorance is annoying.

You managed to quote me, include my words inside the confines of your post, and still get it entirely wrong...but then having fucked that up once, you did it again. Quoted the same post again, and got it wrong again. Good god.

Comprehension is not your strong suit, clearly, but seeing as you insist...

You QUOTED me saying:

quote:

Originally posted by maladat:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by sns3guppy:
If your Bushnell backtrack isn't giving you timely information, consider the age and the limitations of the device. The backtrack will do something you cell phone won't, however; it will still provide location information when you can't get a cell signal.

Let's try to use simple language so it doesn't go over your head a third time, and remember, YOU brought this up. Twice, now. Apparently this is important to you.

The Bushnell Backtrack is NOT a cell phone. It doesn't need, or get a cell phone signal. It does, however, receive GPS signals, and provides navigation information.

When a cell phone is not receiving a signal and can provide no navigational information, the Bushnell Backtrack can. It can do this, you see, because it doesn't use a cell phone signal. Despite your saying otherwise, I never made any statement that inferred or said that it does. In fact, I specifically stated that it is NOT a cell phone, and doesn't rely on cell signals. It was a stupid comparison to a cell phone, but the poster to whom I responded (not you) made the comparison, so we used his comparison.

To recap, in language that hopefully won't go over your head (again):

Look, look, see the Bushnll Backtrack. Pretty, pretty Backtrack. See it receive GPS signals. Receive, Backtrack. Receive!

See the cell phone. The cell phone needs a signal (to use his installed map application). There is no cell signal. Poor, poor cellphone. See the Backtrack. It is still receiving a signal. Go, Backtrack, go!

See Timmy. Timmy needs to find camp. Timmy tries his cell phone. No cell signal. Poor, poor Timmy. Timmy is fucked.

Wait! Timmy remembers. Remember, Timmy. Remember! Timmy has a Bushnell Backtrack. Timmy looks at the Backtrack. Look, Timmy. Look! The Backtrack gets a GPS signal. Get, Backtrack. Get!

Timmy can get a signal and navigate, even though no cell signal is available. Timmy's cell phone is useless. See Timmy's useless piece of shit boat anchor dead weight cell phone. See Timmy remember Tirod's post suggesting that the cell is more accurate because of cell signals. See Timmy swear.

See Timmy remember sns3guppy explaining that the cell phone will get a GPS signal, but needs an application to use it. Timmy didn't get a program that does that. Timmy's cell phone is fucked. Timmy's Bushnell Backtrack is not. Timmy's Bushnell Backtrack doesn't need a cell signal. Timmy's Backtrack doesn't receive a Signal. Timmy's Backtrack isn't a cell phone. No shit, Timmy. No shit.

Timmy sees his Backtrack receiving GPS information. Timmy can navigate, even with no cell signal available. Timmy can use his Backtrack to find camp. Maybe when Timmy gets back to his prissy little shiny Airstream, parked within sight of a mall in the valley, he can get a cell signal. Maybe Timmy can look at his cell phone's map function and figure out how to get off the mountain.

Next time, Timmy will get an application that can take advantage of the GPS functions that his cell phone receives, like Bobby, who is back at camp roasting marshamallows and making time with Timmy's girlfriend, Suzy. Luckily Timmy has GPS.

Tear-jerking, emotive, dramatic, I know, and perhaps too many words with more than one syllable, but did you follow, or are you going to try this a third time?

1. Cellular navigation is NOT superior to GPS (there's a reason it's not the standard for ships, aircraft, and the military...but what the hell, if it helps find Quickymart from one's dead-end street, it must be, right?

2. Most devices today do still have GPS receivers or capability to receive: to use the GPS information, an application is typically needed.

3. Devices that receive GPS information can do so without a cell signal, even in the middle of the ocean (where not surprisingly, there are NO cell towers).

4. Devices that do not use cell signals (Bushnell Backtrack, for example) do not need cell signals. Where such devices are GPS receivers that use GPS information to prevent navigational information...they continue to work where there are no cell towers.

5. That iPhone or iPad will get GPS navigation signals in airplane mode, with no cellular information available, with cell service shut off, and it will do it thousands of miles from the nearest cell tower, with such specific accuracy that one could navigate several thousand miles using that little hand held device, in an emergency, and arrive over a precise point in space, using only the GPS signals, so long as one has an application installed which can use and process that GPS information.

6. The cell phone that has GPS capability does NOT need cellular service to provide accurate information, as a GPS receiver, IF it has the program (application) available to use and present that GPS information. It will show real-time, accurate position on a moving map, and can calculate altitude, velocity, course, etc.

7. A cell phone which does have software installed to allow it to use and present navigation signals won't be much use if one isn't getting a cell signal, even though the phone is quite capable and does actually receive very accurate GPS information. In that case, while the cell isn't doing shit to get Timmy to camp, the Bushnell Backtrack, or one of hundreds of other similar devices, can still provide information received and presented via GPS.

8. One can get off one's lazy ass and install applications on one's phone that enable extremely accurate navigation with, or without cellular data. Failure to do so does not mean that cellular data is more accurate than GPS. It does not mean that the phone or device doesn't have GPS capability. It doesn't mean that GPS is less accurate. It does not mean that the cell phone requires cellular service to generate a position or navigational information. It only means one hasn't taken the steps to use that information.

Get it yet, or are you going to go for round three? What the fuck? Seriously.

Wow, really doubling down on being an asshole, huh?

"you cell phone won't, however; it will still provide location information when you can't get a cell signal.”

"cell phone won't ... provide location information when you can't get a cell signal.”

Note that you didn't say "you can't see your location on a pretty map without a cell signal unless you download maps ahead of time."

You said "cell phone won't ... provide location information."

Which happens to be... FLAT WRONG! And is STILL flat wrong even if we accept your BS about "cell phone" meaning "cell phone you are trying to navigate with but never installed any navigation apps on."

You can use Google Maps and Apple Maps with no cell connection at all. They may or may not show an actual map depending on what has been cached, but even if they just show your dot on a blank canvas, you can get your LAT/LON, which is... LOCATION INFORMATION!

The OP was regarding Garmin and GLONASS, which several of the earlier responses addressed. Things have sure gone sideways since, didn't intend to initiate a pissing match.

You're fine, man.

I have some things to attend to. I don't have time to read through this thread right now. I'll address this when I get a chance. In the interim, I want all participants in this thread to think about their part in it, and what they might have/should have done differently.

Timmy won’t make that mistake again. I enjoyed the perils of Timmy, it was a good nap time story for me.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

I want all participants in this thread to think about their part in it, and what they might have/should have done differently.

I know, I know --



1. Be polite

2. Don't be a know-it-all

Let me approach the situation like this:

Every member who posts in this forum needs to understand something: anyone you see posting on the pages of this forum is my guest. If they weren't welcome here, they would wouldn't have posting rights. Be nice to my guests. Whether or not you like some particular member is irrelevant; they are my guests, and I require that you be polite to them.

Now, don't get me wrong. Friction among grown men is inevitable. Errr, perhaps that's not the right way to phrase it. Let's see- from time to time, you guys will rub each other the wrong way. Shot. No, that's not the way to say it, either. Anyway, it's going to happen from time to time, and I am not going to jump out of the shadows to berate members at the slightest dust-up. Long time members may have noticed that many times when there's a disagreement, I don't show up right away. I wait to see if the situation will resolve itself, or if it will just cease without resolution. Either of those things is fine with me. But, just because you don't see me, that doesn't mean I'm not watching. I am here every day Two years ago when I nearly had a heart attack and I was in the hospital three days, I had an iPad Mini and I was watching this place from my hospital bed.

I try to be fair to the members, even the ones that you may not like. Posting rights = my guest. Be polite to my guests. If there's an issue- if somebody is acting like an asshole, use the report-this-post function,which appears as the little yellow triangle in the lower right hand corner of every post which appears on these pages. When you use that function, I get an email right away, and I read each of these emails and I will examine the post or thread in question. You have my word. No member ever need worry about getting in hot water with me by when they use this reporting function. Except for that one asshole a few years back, who reported me...to me. No, I'm not kidding.

maladat, you got the ball rolling on this. First, you smacked Tirod and then you smacked sns3guppy. Perhaps this is your area of expertise and if so, believe me, I know what it's like when you see someone throwing out incorrect information, but you got the ball rolling. Feel free to correct members, but any dislike you have for particular members does not excuse you getting others riled up. You're a long time member and your contributions are most welcome, as are you. You will always be welcome here, but, help me out by taking a different approach next time.

sns3guppy, man, nobody likes a know-it-all. I've read plenty of your posts, and what I see is a man who is trying too hard to let everyone here know that he's a cut above. Y'know, there are more than a few long time members here who rarely post. Some of these members, they post hardly at all, but I hear from them from time to time. They tell me things. They help me sort out bullshit from time to time. They bring clarity to certain situations. Think about it.

Just as with maladat, you are welcome here, but you need to cool it. At some point, people stop reading those long posts because it's too much to bother with. Take it easy. Lighten up a bit.

If you guys want to go back to discussing GLASNOST and shit, be my guest. Thank for listening.

You got it, Para. Sorry for triggering things, I will work on being more delicate in disagreements.

I’ve got nothing against sns3guppy and no hard feelings.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
I've used both my iPhone SE (2020) and, before that, my Motorola Moto G in backwoods areas with no cellular coverage at all with no problem. Will Google or Apple Maps work? No. They do rely on a constant network feed to retrieve map tiles. But if you install the proper mapping app, one with which you can download and store maps, just like a dedicated GPS thingy: No problem.

Yes, I know. I said this, from the start. READ.

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:

The iPad works for this just fine with no SIM installed, so there is not even a possibility of a cellular data connection. I also have an older iPhone that has been retired from phone service, I use it as sort of a miniature iPad. No active SIM, no data plan, no cellular service, and it runs the GPS-based navigation apps just fine, as long as I have downloaded the appropriate map data via wifi prior to departure.


There are also numerous apps for ground navigation (driving) that support pre-loaded maps and do not require a cellular connection for GPS navigation.

Precisely.

I use Foreflight frequently, and Jeppesen Pro (jepp bought Foreflight). The moving map works fine to show ownship even on an airport diagram, taxiing, which is useful for situational awareness, especially in low visibility areas. Just another tool in the toolbox.

What I have used quite a bit when far from shore are a couple of devices like the Garmin Glo; it is a portable GPS and GLONASS repeater. It is useful where one's phone isn't in line of sight for a GPS signal, or to enhance the signal. One of the repeaters will work with up to five devices (eg, iPads), the other with three. In the cockpit, that's useful to stick in the window or glareshield, and then the ipad doesn't need to be near the window to work. It still gets a signal.

One of the devices has an interface that lets me monitor what it's seeing on an iPhone; it will give satellites in view for each constellation, etc, even update the device battery state, and so on. I got the devices because sometiems in the cockpit, a good signal isn't always evident.

If the russians deny access to GLONASS, it's not really a big loss. The big Gorilla in the room is still GPS.

No,YOU READ.

Start by acknowledging what I said to you, before you really piss me off.

Do not fuck around in this forum. Hear me? Acknowledge what I said to you, and then you MIND. YOUR. MANNERS.

STOP trying to be perfect, because you're just like the rest of us, all too human. STOP being a Goddamned KNOW-IT-ALL.

Got it. Heard you. Received. Understood. Acknowledged.

10-4.

Uh huh

You had better heed my words. Stop trying to come across like you're flawless, that you are always right and never make any mistakes. You're just like the rest of us- you make mistakes every day.

And don't try to get smart with me with this "Got it. Heard you. Received. Understood. Acknowledged. 10-4" shit. Just who in the fuck do you think you're trying to kid?

Be genuine. That's all I ask. Do that, and you'll never have a problem with me.