We've got a VP and presidential candidate calling for censorship, and you want to give the government even more power?

I don't know what the solution is to these gangs, but making it worse by using the military for law enforcement isn't it. Existing law should have been able to deal with this situation, but for whatever reason it wasn't allowed to. And it's easy to say that the tenants should have blown them away, but these are semi-professionalized, organized gangs, not ordinary criminals. Kill one, and they'll not only kill you, but hunt your family down and kill them too. Even the Italian/Sicilian Mafia wasn't (usually) that vicious.

Again I ask, is this not what the military is for? Defending the nation from an invading army, because, let's not kid ourselves, this is what these "gangs" are. They might as well just hoist a flag over Aurora, Colorado and claim it as their own. OK, maybe it's not that bad...yet. But, when it is, then what?

Our government's prime objective is the protection of its citizenry.

These guys are well armed with "weapons of war". Andy and Barney aren't going to be able to handle this.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:
Again I ask, is this not what the military is for? Defending the nation from an invading army, because, let's not kid ourselves, this is what these "gangs" are. They might as well just hoist a flag over Aurora, Colorado and claim it as their own. OK, maybe it's not that bad...yet. But, when it is, then what?

Our government's prime objective is the protection of its citizenry.

These guys are well armed with "weapons of war". Andy and Barney aren't going to be able to handle this.

Not just “No.”, but “Hell No!”

The military is commanded by the head of the Federal government, the same federal government that has become a heinous cancer on this country. To loosen restraints on the federal government would be insane at this point.

The problem is not that local LE cannot address the issue, the problem is that local government (apparently all the way up to the state governor level) refuses to allow Law Enforcement to deal with the issue.

It kinda rhymes with the whole idea of letting scumbags scumbag, then turn them loose with a slap on the wrist, then when said scumbags do something bad with a firearm, instead of burying the scumbag under the jail, they scream for more gun laws (which affect law abiding citizens, not the scumbags) then give the scumbag another slap on the wrist.

At some point, the folks who voted for the local government in-DUH-viduals making these decisions need to feel the pain and hopefully learn to vote more sanely. Unfortunately, those who had a brain and voted more sanely have to suffer along with the folks who voted for the local government in-DUH-viduals. Nobody ever said life was going to be fair.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
Absolutely not. That's not a precedent we want to set. The issue isn't that there aren't enough civilian cops willing and able to get this done...it's that leadership won't allow them to do it, and the politicized judiciary that won't have their back if they do.

Spot on!

I'm in the Nope column. I didn't sign up to invade America. I've also seen what "surgical strikes" actually look like in real life. Not something I want to happen in the Continental US.

Honestly, if CO made their own bed, let's let them lie in a bit.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:
Well armed Venezualan gangs are taking over buildings, and entire city blocks apparently, in Aurora, CO. This is just the beginning of this stuff in my opinion and we're going to start seeing much more of it given four years of a wide open border.

So, can the cops handle this or do we need to have military assets head in to clean house?

Not only no, but fuck no.

When stupid leftist liberals say gun owners are stupid for thinking they can revolt against the US Government with its F35s, tanks, and what nots, I educate them on the posse comitatus act with its safeguards requiring both Congress and the President to authorize the use of the military inside the borders of the U.S. plus the safeguard of hopefully patriots up and down the chain of command who will disobey any unlawful commands to use force against the American people for political purposes.

I point you to the Patriot Act which was a good expedient thing at the time to secure the safety of Americans. Since then, it's been what has been used against Americans including President Trump and his administration.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. - Benjamin Franklin.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:
Again I ask, is this not what the military is for? Defending the nation from an invading army, because, let's not kid ourselves, this is what these "gangs" are.

Our government's prime objective is the protection of its citizenry.

I understand your logic, but it is not correct.

The government's primary, and ONLY purpose is to protect the natural rights of the citizens. Protecting me personally from criminals is not an obligation of the government, and in fact is just a byproduct apprehending suspects and applying the court process to them. The police might respond to a call while a crime is in progress, but they still have no obligation to defend the victims. The government's job is to apprehend the suspects and put them through the court system.

Defending the borders is definitely a function of the government, and the military would be appropriate to use against a true foreign invasion in a declared war or during an actual attack at the border.

The federal government has already decided to ignore enforcing existing border laws at the border. It is therefore illogical to allow them to deploy the military in our heartland. They will misuse the military against us.

These gangs are not a military force deployed by a foreign government, and thus not the responsibility of the military. Were it to become known they are an arm of a foreign government, a formal declaration of war would be required against them before the military should be deployed, and then for the very restricted mission of destroying the enemy.

quote:

Andy and Barney aren't going to be able to handle this.

Andy and Barney have MRAPS and full auto MP5s these days. I think they're more than up to the task.

So no, actually.

Gangs today are no different than gangs that came before:
Bloods/Crips
MS13
Aryan Brotherhood
Black Guerrilla Family
Savage Nomads
Hells Angels
Mongols
Wah Ching
Surenos/Nortenos
Charlestown Mob
Vice Lords
Latin Kings

All have been dealt with by established law enforcement and will continue to be dealt with by law enforcement. International connections aren't new for criminal activities, consider all the Irish and Italian gangs where drugs, money and weapons were funneled back n'forth for their activities. The crux is seeing the entire criminal justice process isn't broken-down or, mucked-up by ideologues who dismiss, minimize or, sloppily handle the prosecution.

No, the same person that directs the military more or less invited the Venezuelan gangs to the United States for "humanitarian reasons."

Here's AI's result when googlizing posse comitatus, there's that "far-right" link again..


There are multiple matches for posse comitatus, including a legal concept and an American far-right extremist social movement.

Posse comitatus is a Latin phrase that means "the power of the county". It describes a group of people who are called upon to assist a sheriff in keeping the peace, to conduct a rescue, or to apprehend a criminal. In British and American law, a posse comitatus is a group of people who are mobilized by the sheriff to suppress lawlessness in the county. The Posse Comitatus Act is named after this legal concept, as it prohibits using soldiers rather than civilians as a posse comitatus. The Act became law on June 18, 1878.

Posse Comitatus is also the name of an American far-right extremist social movement that began in the late 1960s

Update:

https://x.com/libsoftiktok/status/1830807423206015453

This message has been edited. Last edited by: HRK,

Well said. I grew up in NYC in the late 60's through the mid 80's. the movie 'New Jack City' was more accurate then most people thought. NYPD handeled it, although it took some time.

quote:

Originally posted by corsair:
Gangs today are no different than gangs that came before:
Bloods/Crips
MS13
Aryan Brotherhood
Black Guerrilla Family
Savage Nomads
Hells Angels
Mongols
Wah Ching
Surenos/Nortenos
Charlestown Mob
Vice Lords
Latin Kings

All have been dealt with by established law enforcement and will continue to be dealt with by law enforcement. International connections aren't new for criminal activities, consider all the Irish and Italian gangs where drugs, money and weapons were funneled back n'forth for their activities. The crux is seeing the entire criminal justice process isn't broken-down or, mucked-up by ideologues who dismiss, minimize or, sloppily handle the prosecution.

Congress can override the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 and there are some exceptions as well.

https://www.rbhayes.org/schola...y-as-a-police-force/

quote:

Originally posted by Milliron:

quote:

Andy and Barney aren't going to be able to handle this.

Andy and Barney have MRAPS and full auto MP5s these days. I think they're more than up to the task.

Maybe where you live.

My local police department has three officers. None of which could even dream of passing a PT test, let alone do anything more physical than writing a ticket for going 20 in a 15. County Sheriff? Maybe four or five deputies on duty at any given time to cover a county twice the size of Rhode Island. MHP? Yeah, maybe they can get somebody here in an hour or so.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:
Again I ask, is this not what the military is for? Defending the nation from an invading army, because, let's not kid ourselves, this is what these "gangs" are. They might as well just hoist a flag over Aurora, Colorado and claim it as their own. OK, maybe it's not that bad...yet. But, when it is, then what?

Our government's prime objective is the protection of its citizenry.

These guys are well armed with "weapons of war". Andy and Barney aren't going to be able to handle this.

"Hell fuckin' NO" is my answer to the original question.
And I've been a Chicago Cop, for the past (a few day's shy of) 29 years. Not too much on the "Violence & Gang" side of the house that I haven't seen. As a matter of fact, we're experiencing our own little problems with the Illegal Aliens. See HRK's post above.

As to your second question above: YES the U.S. Military is for an invading army.
Canada decides to get a little froggy and jump, Canucks want to take over Montana, the U.S.Marines will have hard-ons protecting the Northern Border.
(Ok, just kidding, the great people of Montana wouldn't need the Marines, they would take care of things on their own )

Gangs are criminals. No where near an "Invading Army".
A group, or large group of people, yes. Army? No.
Is this gang organized with a rank structure? Yes.
Swear an oath to defend their homeland? Probably not.

"Andy & Barney" have multiple resources. You have Local, County, State and Federal Law Enforcement to deal with that problem.
(Or a certain group of people that like motorcycles)

They aren't armed with "Weapons of War" (which is funny, because they will sure use that term against us), they don't have access to Tanks, Artillery, F-16's /A-10's

I think that cities like Denver and Chicago have large police forces and well trained and equipped swat teams. Would be able to. But what if they dropped 60-100 gang members into Billings MT with 162 sworn officers. They would deficately not be able to handle them..

I hope departments are following this and working on plans for this to include mutual aid agreements!!!

While I certainly do not agree with Gustofer's thought on repealing posse comitatus, I do agree with him that there needs to be another solution for these types of issues.

Yes, city PD have the resources to deal with these gangs and have decades of experience.

As he stated, we live in very rural country in Montana and our local LE has little to no experience or resources to handle these types of incidence which are also happening here. Even worse, tribal PD are now dealing with the Sinaloa cartels that are using the rez as "bases".

Blackfoot PD rez asked BIA for additional resources when Biden got elected, and they had 15 officers for 1.5 million acres. They got denied and are down to 7 officers.

Despite pop country songs, it is happening in our small towns.

No effin way.

The military can't do anything here that the police can't do and it would be a horrible precedent.

The problem isn't lack of ability or capability within the police force, it's lack of leadership. The police could clear those buildings out, full stop. They have to have permission to do so though, and then they have to have prosecutors and judges that will hold the responsible parties accountable instead of letting them walk right out the door and straight back into the building.

quote:

Originally posted by Ronin101:
I think that cities like Denver and Chicago have large police forces and well trained and equipped swat teams. Would be able to. But what if they dropped 60-100 gang members into Billings MT with 162 sworn officers. They would deficately not be able to handle them..

I hope departments are following this and working on plans for this to include mutual aid agreements!!!

Have you been to Billings? I haven’t, but I’ve seen a bit of Bozeman. In Bozo, I kinda wonder how many gang dudes would be left for the cops to clean up when they got there. And from what I’ve been told, Bozo is one of the more left leaning places in Montana.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
Absolutely not. That's not a precedent we want to set. The issue isn't that there aren't enough civilian cops willing and able to get this done...it's that leadership won't allow them to do it, and the politicized judiciary that won't have their back if they do.

Exactly, we don't want a military run government.