quote:

Originally posted by slosig:

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Originally posted by tatortodd:
The article I posted 3 hours ago, called the Cirrus the Geek Killer since it came to market in 2001 at the same time as the .com boom.

The Bonanza already had the doctor killer moniker for several decades by then.

Yes, it did. Sorry, I didn't click on the link you had labeled "the Beechcraft Bonanza" the first time around. My memory may be off, but I'd have sworn that the .com bubble burst sometime in 2000. I remember several of us talking about how we didn't whether to feel sad for the folks who had lost jobs or thankful that Bay Area traffic (at least in the South Bay & Peninsula had been dramatically upgraded from truly abysmal most of the time to generally just lousy and occasionally better. That's a lot further back than last week though, so my memory could be completely off...

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Originally posted by V-Tail:
slosig: Good explanation for what you call "the Bonanza divergent roll" and what my wife calls the "the deadly Bonanza spiral." Sounds as if you've spent some time instructing in this series. Actually, it's not restricted to Bonanzas, it can happen with any fast airplane. The more aerodynamically "slippery" the airplane is, the more likely this scenario.

The exercise, pretty much as you describe it, is part of my teaching routine in Bonanzas, with one additional component that I add. At the point where you say "roll wings level, then immediately let go and put your hands in your lap," you point out, correctly, that returning to trimmed airspeed will cause it to pull some Gs.

If this return to trimmed airspeed is fast, the G load might me excessive, so what I teach is to apply a bit of forward pressure on the yoke. Totally counter-intuitive, and it goes against every instinct. We don't apply enough forward pressure to keep the nose below the horizon, but just only enough to slow the rate at which the pitch trim system tries to bring the nose up. Reducing this rate of pitch-up will reduce the G load.

The first time I demo this for a pilot, s/he might be a little apprehensive, but once the trainee understands what is going on, it is not an adrenaline-producing exercise. I demo once, then have the trainee do it and verbalize each step as it occurs. Two or three repetitions, and the lesson has been learned. I strongly believe that twenty minutes spent on this exercise can be a life-saver. It might have saved JFK Jr.

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Originally posted by tatortodd:
The tech stock market peaked in early March 2000 and fell for about 30 months. Telecoms crash occurred in '01, and Worldcom set record for largest bankruptcy at the time in July '02.

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Originally posted by V-Tail:
The registration for the airplane in the linked article was issued on January 11, 2017. My 80th birthday. Is this a sign?

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Originally posted by jimmy123x:
300 knots is pretty damn slow for a jet....give me a TBM 850 or 900, more efficient and a proven plane.

quote:

Originally posted by slosig:

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:
slosig: Good explanation for what you call "the Bonanza divergent roll" and what my wife calls the "the deadly Bonanza spiral." Sounds as if you've spent some time instructing in this series. Actually, it's not restricted to Bonanzas, it can happen with any fast airplane. The more aerodynamically "slippery" the airplane is, the more likely this scenario.

The exercise, pretty much as you describe it, is part of my teaching routine in Bonanzas, with one additional component that I add. At the point where you say "roll wings level, then immediately let go and put your hands in your lap," you point out, correctly, that returning to trimmed airspeed will cause it to pull some Gs.

If this return to trimmed airspeed is fast, the G load might me excessive, so what I teach is to apply a bit of forward pressure on the yoke. Totally counter-intuitive, and it goes against every instinct. We don't apply enough forward pressure to keep the nose below the horizon, but just only enough to slow the rate at which the pitch trim system tries to bring the nose up. Reducing this rate of pitch-up will reduce the G load.

The first time I demo this for a pilot, s/he might be a little apprehensive, but once the trainee understands what is going on, it is not an adrenaline-producing exercise. I demo once, then have the trainee do it and verbalize each step as it occurs. Two or three repetitions, and the lesson has been learned. I strongly believe that twenty minutes spent on this exercise can be a life-saver. It might have saved JFK Jr.

Agree with all the above. I keep it slow and let them see how hard the airplane pulls on its own. Re: slowing the pitch up. A friend did something stupid and found himself nose low, accelerating, and closing in on redline in a G35. As he related it, he simultaneously rolled wings level and chopped the throttle to idle, then pushed hard on the yoke to only allow it to slowly pitch up. He had a little aerobatic training, but he had no explanation for what caused him to slow the pitch up instead of pulling. I doubt he'd have been around to tell the story if he hadn't.

As it was explained to me (don't know if true or not, I've never tried it in a 210 or other high wing cruiser), with a high wing aircraft the slight sideslip causes the air to be trapped against the fuselage and raises the wing yielding positive dynamic stability, while with a low wing it just slides right under the fuselage without creating any return to level force.

I don't know what happened to JFK Jr, but a friend of mine thinks he does. He wanted to fly down to Santa Barbara for dinner at the Elephant Bar (or E-Bar as it was colloquially known). I said okay, but no drinking and he agreed. I should have known better. While I stuck to water, when we left he wasn't polluted, but he was "chatty." We launched off of 15 (L or R, don't remember) with him blabbing away. About 1000' off the water with all the lights were behind us, a classic black hole vertigo hit hard. I said very directly, "Shut the **** UP!", turned the instrument lights up, and focused on nothing but the instruments for what felt like forever (but was probably between 15 and 45 seconds) until the vertigo went away. Then I looked over at him and asked what he was saying. Six month later JFK Jr augered in and Ralph called to say he knew what happened to him. I was blessed to have experienced vertigo several times during my instrument training. It got to where I would start laughing and my instructor would ask why. "We are in a diving right turn, I can feel it, yet I can see we are straight and level." After a while of keeping things steady state and watching the instruments it would go away and the head would sync back up. It was a great experience and funny on a sunny day with a CFI in the right seat. It wasn't so funny at night, over water, with a buzzed non-pilot in the right seat...

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Originally posted by JALLEN:

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Originally posted by jimmy123x:
300 knots is pretty damn slow for a jet....give me a TBM 850 or 900, more efficient and a proven plane.

Cruise speed on a TBM900 max is 330k at FL280. Long range cruise is 252k at FL310.

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Originally posted by jimmy123x:

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Originally posted by JALLEN:

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Originally posted by jimmy123x:
300 knots is pretty damn slow for a jet....give me a TBM 850 or 900, more efficient and a proven plane.

Cruise speed on a TBM900 max is 330k at FL280. Long range cruise is 252k at FL310.

One of my customers used to have a tbm 850 before he went to a jet. I flew in it several times. We cruised at 320 knots.....although many times our SOG was 350-360 knots depending on tail wind. He never cruised it below 300 knots.....

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Originally posted by JALLEN:
JFK Jr was not instrument rated, or even particularly trained more than PPSEL. What stood out to me was >300 hours logged, ~70 solo. It might have been vertigo but that wasn't really necessary to end up as it did.

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
JFK Jr was not instrument rated, or even particularly trained more than PPSEL. What stood out to me was >300 hours logged, ~70 solo. It might have been vertigo but that wasn't really necessary to end up as it did.

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Originally posted by V-Tail:

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Originally posted by JALLEN:
JFK Jr was not instrument rated, or even particularly trained more than PPSEL. What stood out to me was >300 hours logged, ~70 solo. It might have been vertigo but that wasn't really necessary to end up as it did.

I knew that he was not instrument rated, but the numbers that you show are astounding! 300 hours total logged time, with almost 80% of that dual? That really sounds strange.

Unless -- here's a possibility -- solo time (the 70 hours) is normally only logged by somebody who holds a student pilot certificate. Once past the student stage, as private pilot, etc., solo loses the meaning it has for students, and time is normally logged as PIC, rather than solo. In that case, 70 hours of solo is a bit on the high side for students, but certainly believable. That would put his PIC time somewhere around the 200 hour mark.

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Originally posted by JALLEN:

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Originally posted by V-Tail:

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Originally posted by JALLEN:
JFK Jr was not instrument rated, or even particularly trained more than PPSEL. What stood out to me was >300 hours logged, ~70 solo. It might have been vertigo but that wasn't really necessary to end up as it did.

I knew that he was not instrument rated, but the numbers that you show are astounding! 300 hours total logged time, with almost 80% of that dual? That really sounds strange.

Unless -- here's a possibility -- solo time (the 70 hours) is normally only logged by somebody who holds a student pilot certificate. Once past the student stage, as private pilot, etc., solo loses the meaning it has for students, and time is normally logged as PIC, rather than solo. In that case, 70 hours of solo is a bit on the high side for students, but certainly believable. That would put his PIC time somewhere around the 200 hour mark.

There is an extensive discussion of his flight experience and training in the NTSB report, here.

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Originally posted by V-Tail:
300 hours may or may not be too new to flying, depending on the pilot.

At 300 hours, I was instrument, commercial, CFI (Airplane, Instrument). In fact, every rating I currently hold, 50 years later, except for the multi pilot and multi CFI. I flew my Beech 23 Musketeer from my old job at Bell Labs in Nj, to my new job at ITT in Puerto Rico, where I became pretty proficient navigating with ADF, and did a fair amount of instructing in fluent English and not-so-fluent Spanish.

But even with those credentials, I had very little experience in real weather.

On the other hand, I know a lot of pilots who have accrued 300 or more hours flying laps around the pattern and making hamburger runs on a sunny afternoon. They can easily get in trouble on a clear cloudless night, even over populated areas with lots of lights on the ground. They get the private and all training ceases except for the mandatory Flight Review every two years.

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Originally posted by V-Tail:

The report says a total of 72 hours without a CFI on board. In a subsequent paragraph it states a total of 65 hours without a CFI on board after passing the private pilot checkride. If these figures are both correct, that means there were only seven hours of solo time prior to the private pilot checkride. Seven hours does not meet the requirements of Part 61. No way an examiner would administer the checkride without the required aeronautical experience. so there is something wrong with the numbers in that report.