If anyone recalls, I had an unfortunate incident a few years back where I applied WAY too much fertilizer to my front lawn and burned it dead.

I ended up re-seeding but with Kentucky 31 (K31) grass from Tractor Supply and I’ve never been happy with it. It’s coarse and ugly and not a nice darker green like other lawns. I should have never let my neighbor talk me into using this, it sounds like this is a pasture grass and not really a lawn grass. It also seems like it’s getting uglier the older it gets, it’s not a very thick type grass and the blades are so wide they almost look like crabgrass.

So this September or so I would like to kill it off and start it over with a nice turf type tall fescue.

Has anyone done this before?

Does this sound like the proper procedure?

1. Spray area to be killed off thoroughly with Round-Up around late August

2. Wait a few weeks

3. Rake out all dead stuff

4. Add supplemental topsoil?

5. Seed the raked soil around mid-September, cover with straw layer

6. Water the shit out of it every morning for the first 3-4 weeks


It’s not a huge front lawn section I want to do; maybe 80 feet by 12 feet and I don’t plan to mess with the sides or rear as they are fine and already have a finer bladed type fescue.

One thing I’ve noticed when sticking lawn signs in my front is that about 5 inches down, I seem to be hitting rocks or gravel. I wonder if I only have 5 inches or so of topsoil on top of a bed of gravel there? Is that a problem? Or maybe my soil is just very rocky there in the front, this area is known to have very rocky soil.

I guess I could dig out a spot to see what is down there?

If anyone has any advice or feedback to this, or if I’m on the right track here, please let me know. I’m so tired of this ugly nasty looking garbage grass.

I had to do something similar and if I remember you have to wait at least 13 weeks to reseed. In addition to raking look into a de thatcher. You can also use the de thatcher to help get rid of the grass so you might be able to use less grass killer. It will help break apart the hard soil and allow for better seeding. Once you throw the new seed on there you will want a layer of top soil. I normally reseed in October. Just try to time the killing of the grass and planting the new one. I am no expert on this so maybe one of those will chime in but the process I mentioned did work for me. Also you can call a lawn expert and ask for advice. Most are more than happy to give it.

1. Too late, you want the grass dead for a while & some rain on the round-up to break it down. You will probably need 2 applications of roundup about 2-3 weeks apart to kill everything.

5" of topsoil is just enough for grass - roots go down to just over the height you mow, fescue likes 3" or a little more.

If you are not going to till the ground, I don't think I'd use round-up, too much residue to kill the grass you plant. Round-up doesn't advertise residual control, but if you don't get a good stand, you're fucked for a year. I did this on about 3/4 acre last year & I hit it about mid-July, then again ~2-3 weeks later. 2 weeks after 2nd spray, I tilled. I tilled again 1st of Sept, used a drag to level dirt somewhat, then planted when it cooled down & rain was forecast.

My suggestion, in lieu of Round-up, end of August/1st of September, scalp it with mower & bag/sweep the grass up. Preferably compost it, but trash it if you don't have the option. keep it short until Mid-sept, once highs are in low 80s max, preferably 75ish. Aerate the piss out of it, or break up at least the top 1" of soil however you like. Add some starter fertilizer, plant a good turf grass mix & water the hell out of it. If you can keep it covered with straw & watered, it will out-compete the K31 next year. K31 is very hardy, but not nice looking/feeling, as you've found out. It also grows slowly & likes to be cut tall, so scalping it will really knock it back, but you'll still have the benefit of some cover while the new grass establishes. You will probably need to overseed next year with the turf grass, but it will take over in a few years.

80x12 would be really easy to sod, as well, about a pallet. Call some places & see how much they'd charge to till & lay it down. If you can water it, you can probably do it now. Part of my 3/4 acre project last year was some man-made hills that I used 10 pallets of sod on to keep the sand on top of the hill, rather than the bottom. 10 pallets was about $1k, but I live within sight of the sod farm & made the order at a bar stool next to the owner.

quote:

My suggestion, in lieu of Round-up, end of August/1st of September, scalp it with mower & bag/sweep the grass up. Preferably compost it, but trash it if you don't have the option. keep it short until Mid-sept, once highs are in low 80s max, preferably 75ish. Aerate the piss out of it, or break up at least the top 1" of soil however you like. Add some starter fertilizer, plant a good turf grass mix & water the hell out of it.

I agree with snidera. I don't think you need Round-up. Rent an aerator and aerate and overseed your entire yard, not just the bad area. Just aerate the hell out of the bad part... or till it if that's not too much trouble. Overseed the entire yard, but put it down heavy in the bad part. Labor Day, or early September is the best time for seed.

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I agree with snidera. I don't think you need Round-up. Rent an aerator and aerate and overseed your entire yard, not just the bad area. Just aerate the hell out of the bad part... or till it if that's not too much trouble. Overseed the entire yard, but put it down heavy in the bad part. Labor Day, or early September is the best time for seed.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Agree. Forget the Roundup.

quote:

Originally posted by snidera:
1. Too late, you want the grass dead for a while & some rain on the round-up to break it down. You will probably need 2 applications of roundup about 2-3 weeks apart to kill everything.

Yup. Because seed.

Process I've read (this is also for nuke & pave weed control) is herbicide, till after vegetation is dead, wait X weeks, re-apply herbicide, till again after new vegetation is dead.

Then you have to wait a good long while for the herbicide to break down far enough it won't affect the new seedlings. E.g.: RoundUp can persist as long as 200 days (more than 6-1/2 months)--depending upon soil type and various other environmental factors.

Then, for weed control, and if you really want to be sure of preventing new weeds, apply Syngenta Tenacity herbicide at the time you re-seed. (Warning: Sticker shock ahead.)

I sometimes feel like doing this to our yard, but, with ±20,000 sqft. of lawn, it's not practical.

I disagree with the roundup lasting for long periods. According to the manufacturer it's three days.

When I did mine I killed it with round up. Two weeks later I burnt the dead stuff off the top then roto tilled the area and raked roots out. Then I put down many, many yards of compost/topsoil mix that is mixed locally to whatever percentage you want (I did 70% poop, 30% topsoil). Then I applied seed and straw and tamped it all down with gas powered tamper.

Looks great, but it was a LOT OF WORK and I had a dead yard for a couple weeks.

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:
I disagree with the roundup lasting for long periods. According to the manufacturer it's three days.

My wife, who is very well-educated in these things, and uses RoundUp, when I related this to her, responded "Yeah. Good luck with that."

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:
Then I put down many, many yards of compost/topsoil mix ...

So you essentially buried the RoundUp-contaminated soil.

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:
... that is mixed locally to whatever percentage you want (I did 70% poop, 30% topsoil).

70% manure? Are you certain you don't have that ratio reversed?

I’d say a slit seeder, double pass at 45° is better than an aerator unless the soil is heavily compacted.

I’ve been using TTTF (Trophy XRE) just about everywhere with enough sun. It doesn’t go dormant in the hot summer as it has much deeper rooting.

quote:

70% manure? Are you certain you don't have that ratio reversed?

^^^^^^^^^
Wow. I would not want to live within half a mile.

quote:

Originally posted by mark123:

I’ve been using TTTF (Trophy XRE) just about everywhere with enough sun. It doesn’t go dormant in the hot summer as it has much deeper rooting.

Where can I find that?

I'd till it all up then apply Round-Up. Seed and let it grow. Round-Up is not supposed to kill new seeds so if you apply after tilling it should kill everything else except the seeds.

quote:

Originally posted by mrvmax:
I'd till it all up then apply Round-Up. Seed and let it grow. Round-Up is not supposed to kill new seeds so if you apply after tilling it should kill everything else except the seeds.

My roundup jug has to be moved with a forklift & I would never ever do this.
Till after roundup, or don't use it, or any non selective herbicide.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
Then, for weed control, and if you really want to be sure of preventing new weeds, apply Syngenta Tenacity herbicide at the time you re-seed. (Warning: Sticker shock ahead.)

I used Tenacity a year ago to kill Nimblewill and I still cannot get grass to grow in the areas where I applied it.

They advertise it as a weed killer but it is really a vegetation killer.

However, in fairness, it did kill the Nimblewill.

quote:

Originally posted by Broadside:

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
Then, for weed control, and if you really want to be sure of preventing new weeds, apply Syngenta Tenacity herbicide at the time you re-seed. (Warning: Sticker shock ahead.)

I used Tenacity a year ago to kill Nimblewill and I still cannot get grass to grow in the areas where I applied it.

They advertise it as a weed killer but it is really a vegetation killer.

However, in fairness, it did kill the Nimblewill.

Did you mix it properly? I’ve used it with good success.

quote:

Originally posted by mrvmax:
I'd till it all up then apply Round-Up.

No! Roundup and similar herbicides work primarily by absorbtion through plants' leaves.

quote:

Originally posted by Broadside:
I used Tenacity a year ago to kill Nimblewill and I still cannot get grass to grow in the areas where I applied it.

They advertise it as a weed killer but it is really a vegetation killer.

No, it's not.

I used Tenacity to kill nimblewill and bent grass. (TTBOMK, Tenacity is the only herbicide that will whack bent grass without also nailing desirable grasses.) It got them both, with zero effect on the desirable grass.

The results of a test where they applied Tenacity to newly-seeded areas can be found on-line. (It was a university study, IIRC.) The area to which they applied Tenacity fared much better than the adjacent area where they did not.

I have to believe something was awry with your application.

Roundup has no action on seeds or in the soil. It does not prevent seeds from germinating and growing. The only reason you need to wait 3-4 days after spraying before tilling the ground or planting is that if you disturb the roots of the plant too soon after spraying, the Roundup will not translocate to the roots and the plant wont die.

Farmers plant millions of acres a few days after spraying roundup. It does not "persist in the soil" and damage newly planted seeds.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:
I disagree with the roundup lasting for long periods. According to the manufacturer it's three days.

My wife, who is very well-educated in these things, and uses RoundUp, when I related this to her, responded "Yeah. Good luck with that."

Only going by what the manufacturer says and my personal experience. Round up only works where it can be absorbed into foliage. It will not kill seeds. It will breakdown and become basically inert just by being left in the sun.

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:
Then I put down many, many yards of compost/topsoil mix ...

So you essentially buried the RoundUp-contaminated soil.

Adding 1/2-1" of soil/topdressing is not burying.

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:
... that is mixed locally to whatever percentage you want (I did 70% poop, 30% topsoil).

70% manure? Are you certain you don't have that ratio reversed?

They messed up the mix, but it worked perfectly in a thin layer. The next batch where I needed to do some grading with I asked them to make sure it was 50/50, instead they brought 30% poo 70% TS, worked great where I used it. If I used the 70/30 for areas I was grading it would have washed away.

quote:

Originally posted by ZSMICHAEL:

quote:

70% manure? Are you certain you don't have that ratio reversed?

^^^^^^^^^
Wow. I would not want to live within half a mile.

Yeah, it smelled like shit and extended past my yard with the foul odor.

After two weeks it became much milder, by the third or fourth week the smell was gone.

quote:

Originally posted by snidera:

K31 is very hardy, but not nice looking/feeling, as you've found out. It also grows slowly

That has not been my experience at all with this K31 (DLF brand from Tractor Supply). It seems to grow 2-3x faster than the rest of my grass, I’ll cut it and within 2-3 days it’s looking like it needs to be cut again while the rest can go 2 weeks at a time.

I like that it seems to be tough but it’s not thick and just SO damn coarse. I swear it’s like I’m growing a crop of nice crabgrass