Video.

So many questions. Black guy is dead, White guy pulled the trigger. They claim "recent break-ins" for the confrontation, the black guy was "jogging".

An interesting twist is the shooter is a retired cop, apparently still juiced in because 2 DA's have already recused themselves because of personal conflicts.

The coronavirus has limited protests, but since this video hit, they are starting.

I am all for the Castle Doctrine. I am all for it extending to your person and not just your home. But what if your the one that initiates the confrontation? Like Jacksonville when they guy complained about loud music at the gas pumps? Or Zimmerman? Is there a false confidence a weapon holder has when doing this? Should this be addressed?

I firmly believe your cell phone is a better weapon in these situations. You can call for help. You can video or take pics.

I guess I fear the pendulum will swing back the other way because of these situations, and a lot of pro self defense laws will be rolled back.

Thoughts?

Forgive me if this has been posted already, I did search.

The truck is stopped in front of the guy 3. Guy 3 is a good distance from the truck and running towards the back of it. Guy 1 is standing next to the open driver's side door. Guy 3 continues running towards the truck, runs around the passenger's side, across the front of the truck and starts grabbing guy 1's shotgun.

Who is chasing who here? Guy 3 never runs away.

Why does guy 3 run around the truck and attack shotgun holding guy 1?

Who the heck is the person taking the cellphone video while driving towards a guy holding a shotgun?

Guy 3 ran 60 feet towards the truck, another 20 to get around it, and attacked guy 1. Seems like guy 1 has a good self defense case.

I’ll need a lot more information before rendering any kind of opinion. If the only reason the runner was suspected in any crime was running down the road, the guys in the truck are up the creek. I suspect there’s more to it, and will wait for the whole story.

quote:

Originally posted by gearhounds:
I’ll need a lot more information before rendering any kind of opinion. If the only reason the runner was suspected in any crime was running down the road, the guys in the truck are up the creek. I suspect there’s more to it, and will wait for the whole story.

^^^Yep, that video provides little to no valuable info in terms of what actually went on, short of some guy getting shot. I'd need a whole lot more info to sort out what really went down there.

And just for clarification magicmedic, your Zimmerman example is not relevant given Zimmerman did not physically assault anyone, and only fired after he was on his back being assaulted. Totally different circumstances there.

what a mess

if nobody's life is in immediate grave danger -- just call LE and as has been said -- video w/ your phone

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A lot of missing information and laws very from state to state. But I think this is going to focus more on the laws regarding citizens arrest rather than self defense.

Considering one person involved was retired law enforcement, he probably knew what words to use with the investigating officer to make sure the officer could check all the correct boxes for a justified shooting.

What I would really like to know is whether any evidence has come to light indicating this individual was responsible for the break-ins.

This Fox News story has the video with less editing.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/geo...ing-of-ahmaud-arbery

I’m guessing the person videoing was unrelated. They appear to be looking for something else and not focused on the guy until later. Because of that, and where they are, they miss some important info.

So using the very limited info you can see, this looks at face value, very suspicious to me.
In the early part of the video, the victim appears neatly dressed as a jogger would and acting as a jogger would while running through a suburban neighborhood. Why is he running towards the truck? He’s just running down the road as any jogger would.

As he approaches the stopped pickup truck, he starts to go around like you or I would under the circumstances then suddenly changes direction when he is a few feet from the back to go around the curb side. At that point he would have seen the guy in the bed with a gun aimed at him.

That’s when we can’t see the most important part and this goes to mere speculation. The authorities must have at least some crime scene photos and statements. No mention has been made of the history of the victim (I’m using that term as the court would, he’s the guy that’s dead, not to say he’s necessarily innocent). That might not be allowed in a court room, but if he has a long record or is a guy with no record, might be helpful.

Putting myself in the place of the victim, if I was a innocent jogger running down the road and happened upon a similar situation with some guys that were not uniformed law enforcement shouting at me with guns waving around, who knows. We don’t know what, if anything was said.
At the very least, this requires a very through examination. Something doesn’t pass the smell test.

The guy in the bed of the truck is the son of the former DA, NOT a former cop. They look like and are acting like a couple of vigilante yahoos waving guns around, not cops. They are in fact, not cops, just performing a “citizens arrest”.

They claim they told him to stop so they could talk to him? They had no right to stop or detain him, no evidence he had done anything. Just a call from the shooters father from elsewhere that he “thought that guy might be a burglar” that had committed some recent break in’s. You or I couldn’t just walk around waving our gun at someone, demand they stop, and not be considered the initial aggressor. The victim may well be the one that could have claimed self defense had he had a gun and shot.

Awaiting more info about the event after a real transparent investigation is done.

Guy with gun had no business trying to stop jogger. Jogger had no business attacking guy with gun. Stupid asses all around.

No clue what the heck happened there. I know I wouldn't try to take on two armed men that already had their weapons drawn. The video linked says they were chasing the guy using the truck. Does anyone know if that is the case?

If you forced me to draw any conclusions from the tiny bit of information available. The two in the truck should not be playing vigilantes. They should have called the cops. The only threat there was the two guys with guns. Guy was jogging, not in the middle of a B&E when they confronted him.

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:
No clue what the heck happened there. I know I wouldn't try to take on two armed men that already had their weapons drawn. The video linked says they were chasing the guy using the truck. Does anyone know if that is the case?

If you forced me to draw any conclusions from the tiny bit of information available. The two in the truck should not be playing vigilantes. They should have called the cops. The only threat there was the two guys with guns. Guy was jogging, not in the middle of a B&E when they confronted him.

Exactly, they appear to be committing an aggravated assault and possible kidnapping that would have allowed the jogger to shoot them legally, not the other way around.

I think Black Lives Matter is slime but this is the sort of incident that will fuel them for years unless there is a lot of real evidence to the contrary.

What a terrible mess

quote:

Originally posted by 220-9er:
The guy in the bed of the truck is the son of the former DA, NOT a former cop.

No.

According to the Fox News report you provided:

quote:

"The report said Travis McMichael, the son of a former district attorney investigator, fired the fatal shot.

Arbery was spotted jogging by Gregory McMichael, the former investigator. News4Jax reported that the father called 911 at 1:08 p.m. to report a “black man running down the street.” He reportedly told a dispatcher that he suspected Arbery was involved in recent burglaries.

The 64-year-old called his son and they armed themselves, according to the report. The police report says Gregory McMichael told officers he and his son first tried to stop Arbery by shouting, “Stop, stop, we want to talk to you!”

The father claimed that Arbery attacked his son and they got into a struggle for a shotgun. Police said the son fired two shots.

The guy in the bed of the truck is Gregory McMichael, who is a former investigator for the DA's office (which is typically a sworn law enforcement position, e.g. a cop). The guy on the street with the shotgun, the one who fired the fatal shot(s), is his son Travis McMichael.

Best to have called the law. I believe you can & should protect yourself, hunting people down is best left to law.

quote:

Originally posted by recoatlift:
Best to have called the law.

He did. The news report states that he called 911 at 1:08 pm to report a suspicious "black man running down the street". He just didn't wait for the police to respond before grabbing a gun and loading up in the truck with his son to go confront him.

And that's what I see in the longer video in the link 220-9er posted.

Guy 3 appears to be just out jogging. The white truck presumably passed him and stopped a good distance in front of him; at least 100 feet. The driver had exited the truck with a shotgun. Guy 3 doesn't have a clue who these guys are, but sees the shotgun as he nears tbe truck, decides he's going to get shot, and defends himself.

My first WAG was based on the story that the two white guys we're "chasing" the black guy and assumimg the black guy knew he was being chased. The longer video leads my to believe the black guy had no clue he was being "chased".

My new WAG is the two vigilantes are going down for this which is why they changed their story from self defense to citizens arrest. Screw them.

Typically have to have witnessed the crime to make a citizen’s arrest.

Looks like a dumpster fire, unless they witnessed him breaking into a home then running away it probably won’t end well. Of course even if not true they could lie and hope the jury buys it (and hopefully they won’t.) Either way, observe and report is my mo for property crimes, not worth a confrontation.

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:
Guy with gun had no business trying to stop jogger. Jogger had no business attacking guy with gun. Stupid asses all around.

Perfect analysis and why you don't escalate the conflict.

quote:

Who the heck is the person taking the cellphone video while driving towards a guy holding a shotgun?

Presumably the third part of the team stalking the jogger.

What we know about the shooting death of Ahmaud Arbery

Baltimore Sun

ATLANTA - In more typical times, the shooting death of an unarmed black man by a white man would have drawn widespread attention. Over the years, similar cases have shaken communities and spurred nationwide social justice protests.

But with much of the nation on lockdown because of the coronavirus and the possibilities for mass protests constrained, friends and family members of the black man who was killed, Ahmaud Arbery, said they worried that his death would go unnoticed and that no one would be held to account.



In recent days, Arbery’s death has raised questions about racial profiling, Georgia’s self-defense laws and the wisdom of citizen policing. Two prosecutors have recused themselves, citing conflicts of interest, and the case is now being looked at with fresh eyes by a third prosecutor in a county about an hour’s drive away.

This is what we know — and don’t know — about the case:


Who was Ahmaud Arbery?
Arbery, 25, was a former high school football standout who was living with his mother in coastal Glynn County, Georgia, outside of the small city of Brunswick, Georgia. He was shot dead in a suburban neighborhood called Satilla Shores. Friends and family said he liked to stay in good shape, and he was often seen jogging in and around his neighborhood.

On Sunday, Feb. 23, shortly after 1 p.m., he was killed in a neighborhood a short jog from his home after being confronted by a white man and his son.


Arbery was chased by armed white residents of Glynn County, Ga., and was shot dead during a confrontation. (Courtesy of the Arbery Family via The New York Times)
How was he killed?
Arbery was running in the Satilla Shores neighborhood when a man standing in his front yard saw him go by. The man, Gregory McMichael, 64, thought Arbery looked like a man suspected of several break-ins in the area and called to his son, Travis McMichael, 34.

According to a police report, the men grabbed a .357 magnum and a shotgun, got into a pickup truck and chased Arbery, trying unsuccessfully to cut him off. A third man was also involved in the pursuit, according to the police report and other documents.

In a recording of a 911 call, which appears to have been made moments before the chase began, a neighbor told a dispatcher that a black man was inside a house that was under construction on the McMichaels’ block.

During the chase, the McMichaels yelled, “Stop, stop, we want to talk to you,” according to Gregory McMichael’s account in the police report. They then pulled up to Arbery, and Travis McMichael got out of the truck with the shotgun.

“(Gregory) McMichael stated the unidentified male began to violently attack Travis and the two men then started fighting over the shotgun at which point Travis fired a shot and then a second later there was a second shot,” the report states.

The police report and other documents obtained by The New York Times do not indicate that Arbery was armed.

Gregory McMichael is a former Glynn County police officer and a former investigator with the local district attorney’s office who retired last May. Neither he nor his son has been arrested or charged.

Why has no one been arrested?
Shortly after the shooting, the prosecutor for the Brunswick judicial district recused herself because Gregory McMichael had worked in her office.

The case was sent to George E. Barnhill, the district attorney in Waycross, Georgia, who eventually recused himself from the case after Arbery’s mother argued that he had a conflict because his son also works for the Brunswick district attorney.

But before he relinquished the case, Barnhill argued in a letter obtained by The Times that there was not sufficient probable cause to arrest Arbery’s pursuers. In the letter, Barnhill noted that the McMichaels were legally carrying their firearms under Georgia’s open carry law. He said the pursuers were within their rights to pursue what he called “a burglary suspect” and cited a state law that states, “A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge.”



Barnhill also argued that if Arbery attacked Travis McMichael, McMichael was “allowed to use deadly force to protect himself” under Georgia law.

What do Arbery’s defenders say?
Barnhill wrote, in his letter, that Arbery had mental health issues, though he does not elaborate on this point, and that he had prior convictions. Court records show that Arbery was convicted of shoplifting and of violating probation in 2018. Five years earlier, according to The Brunswick News, he was indicted on charges that he took a handgun to a high school basketball game.



Those details, Barnhill argued, “help explain his apparent aggressive nature and his possible thought pattern to attack an armed man.”

Arbery’s defenders believe he was probably jogging through the neighborhood for exercise. Michael J. Moore, an Atlanta lawyer who formerly served as a U.S. attorney in Georgia, reviewed Barnhill’s letter to the Glynn County Police Department, as well as the initial police report, at the request of The Times. In an email, Moore called Barnhill’s opinion “flawed.”

In his view, Moore said, the McMichaels appeared to be the aggressors in the confrontation, and such aggressors were not justified in using force under Georgia’s self-defense laws. “The law does not allow a group of people to form an armed posse and chase down an unarmed person who they believe might have possibly been the perpetrator of a past crime,” Moore wrote.

What happens next?
After Barnhill recused himself, the state attorney general’s office assigned the case to a third prosecutor, Tom Durden, who is based in Hinesville, Georgia. Durden must now decide whether to present the case to a grand jury.

In a recent interview with The Times, Durden said he would be looking at the case with fresh eyes. “We don’t know anything about the case,” he said. “We don’t have any preconceived idea about it.”

The stupid is strong with these shooters and maybe with the runner.

quote:

Barnhill argued in a letter obtained by The Times that there was not sufficient probable cause to arrest Arbery’s pursuers. In the letter, Barnhill noted that the McMichaels were legally carrying their firearms under Georgia’s open carry law. He said the pursuers were within their rights to pursue what he called “a burglary suspect” and cited a state law that states, “A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge.”

This is my favorite part.

The government, who always tells people not to take matters into their own hands, and that they shouldn't engage in "citizen's arrest" is actually using that to defend the retired officer.

Weird.