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Originally posted by downtownv:

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Originally posted by steve495:

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Originally posted by downtownv:
I've sold a few overseas (Europe) puts 50% import tax on them at the port!
Japan 70%!
a sportster costs these people $20k +

Trump is SOOOOOO Right, these countries stick it right up our tookus!

I was sort of interested in what the EU charged prior to the recent changes in the last couple of days. All I could find ... a Duty of between 6 and 8 percent depending on engine size, plus an additional 20 percent on top of that for value added tax (VAT).

Can you direct us to the 50 percent import tax you're referring to?

I sold 3 bikes in the early 90's 1 to Germany, 1 to Denmark and 1 to Japan,. All in that's what they got tacked on...they told me when they bought what it was going to cost them delivered to their door.
They prepaid the ocean freight, then they got the Various taxman lined up along the way.

Maybe one of our overseas members can give us today's figures.

OK, the early 90s was more than 25 years ago. I'm thinking this reflects the current rates prior to what happened recently.

https://www.carfax.eu/article/...harley-davidson.html

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Originally posted by PowerSurge:
Harley only sold about 45,000 bikes in Europe last year.

Yeah, but do you know how much those bikes generated in 'service' revenue.

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Originally posted by bigdeal:

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Originally posted by PowerSurge:
Harley only sold about 45,000 bikes in Europe last year.

Yeah, but do you know how much those bikes generated in 'service' revenue.

I'll do you one better. How many of those 45,000 went ahead and spent another $4000+ on accessories and branded gear? To give you an idea of the markup on "their" gear, the Harley Davidson FXRG modular helmet is the exact same as the HJC RPHA Max. One costs $325 and the other $525. Bet you can never guess what makes it so special Shit, if half of those 45,000 sold bought that particular helmet along with their bike (and you know they probably did), that's a cool $4.5 mil sitting in HD's pocket.

A long slow death, started with AMF.....

Perhaps they shouldn't only make old man bikes.

HD has attempted to sell "youth" bikes, the problem is that young people by and large didn't have the money to pay for them. When you take a 21 year old, a 600 cc bike and call your insurance agent the monthly premium is more than the bike payment. And why step into the sub $10K market where it's thick with competition and no margin. I can go into any metric dealer and pick up a two or three year old New in the Box bike anytime I want.

They did have Buell, it wasn't a world beater but it still was interesting. It couldn't run with the jap bikes, and HD has worked with other monkey humper designs, none work out.
They also had one other water cooled Hi-po crotch rocket, again they don't sell well.

Much of it is economics, if you have the money to ride a crotch rocket style bike you get a Ducati or MV Augusta, if you don't you buy metric because they could cash advance enough CC funds to buy a 600 cc Kawi, and in FL you are not required to have insurance on a motorcycle so by having a paid up title, no $300 a month premiums. So they buy them, wreck them and walk away (if they still can walk) from the bikes. Happens all the time.

HD sales are down from their high points, partially because trends change, customers change, if it's old men and dying people then why has Indian taken off, and now has taken some of the market, Victory was killed off by Polaris to concentrate on Indian.

For those making disparaging remarks about the quality, the new bikes have Delphi electronics and run a can-bus system, LED lights all around, ABS using Brembo braking systems, fully integrated infotainment systems from Harmon Kardon that allow BT, wi-fi, phone calls, GPS, connection with Siri and much more.

Those talking shit just don't know jack shit about the newer HD models or they would know that HD just released an all new V-twin engine, it is the new 4 valve engine called the Milwaukee 8. A fully redesigned engine with 4 valves per cyl and plenty of power, traditional HD have had two valve heads for years. The big cruisers also have water cooled heads to keep temps down.

Design wise, that's a matter of perspective when you consider every Japanese bike has tried to copy HD designs and failed in the market to get any share. Even Honda finally downsized the Bloatwing where it's similar to a HD Road Glide in size.

BTW once the tariff was lifted off heavy bikes, Honda closed the Gold wing plant in Ohio, fired the workers and took production back to Japan.

HD is a global company, as such it needs to have overseas production, no different than GM, Ford, Fiat/Chrysler, all have worldwide production centers.

Its not the glory days of motorcycles like the 90's to early 00's trends, fads etc move, now it's all about who can put $200,000K into an old truck or car and build a custom retrorod.

Things change, HD has done some design changes, but they aren't going to build a BMW 1200 or Goldwing bike,nor KawaisuziHonda monkey humper for $4999, that market is saturated with cheap metric bikes.

Frankly I'd never buy a BMW or Metric cruiser, no soul, no style, fast yes but that's not as important to me as is used to be, an Indian, maybe.

If you want to bash the company plans to do things overseas fine, but if you are going to just bash the product, then educate yourself before you post, technologically HD is ahead of the metrics in many ways...

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Even Honda finally downsized the Bloatwing where it's similar to a HD Road GLide in size.

My 2006 "Bloatwing" took me on several coast to coast motorcycle trips and usually in 4-5 days. Dealer uncrated the bike and did set up. I just check the oil, tires and fill up the gas tank with 87 octane and hit the road.

Meanwhile, the HD riders were poured $1500 into their Ultra Classics to get the motor up on it's feet.

I agree the Harley Davidson Motor Company does make a good motorcycle, but it's dealer greed that's biting them in the ass.

LOL I road a buddies Bloatwing for a while, there are good and bad things about them, great bikes, I don't care for the peg position, then again I'm an old white fat but not balding male so that's probably why I like feet forward LOL

I've done similar on my Road Glide, GOAT and ride it, 70K+ miles and nary a big problem that wasn't the result of A) me doing something I shouldn't b) normal wear and tear, my RG before that had 30K (only kept it two years) same thing GOAT and ride. I've had 5 different HD's since 00, none were problematic.

Neither were ever in the shop for repairs to anything factory problem related.... No wait, I read back up a few posts, can't be right, I must have had a shit load of problems I didn't know about LOL

Have you looked at the new Wing, it's nice and incredibly downsized, I was stunned at the size reduction, it really is closer to the size of a Road Glide now, narrow, not as tall, bags and tour pack smaller...

Some Hd dealers are not great, some are better than others, lately the Car dealer mentality has been moving into them as they are bought out and turned into mega stores by the buyers.

HD value is down 23% in the last year. They've been closing plants, shifting to York and planning the move to Thailand long before this steel/aluminium tariff stuff came up. They're using it to blow smoke to cover their already money concerned decisions.

They're bikes are not selling. Puff and pant about all their 'innovation, improvements and greatness' and still, people are just losing interest. Why pay 20k for a 50 hp couch on wheels when you can get a real motorcycle that you don't half to trailer it most of the time to get it any distance?

Nothing in their inventory is exciting. Not to me, anyway. And the American made motorcycle hype is going bye bye. It's quickly becoming snake oil, anymore.

HD was thrilled when Reagan put a 49.4% tariff on 700+ cc Japanese bikes back in 1983. Without that tariff this discussion wouldn't be happening. Now they are going offshore? They've always been and will continue to be a low technology company. If I'm not mistaken it took Porsche to design their first water cooled engine (VRod).

We should have let them die in 1983

I think they are jumping the gun on this. The CEO needs to let President Trump play this out.

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Originally posted by downtownv:
I can buy a low milage fat boy 4years old for under 5k
Full dressers for under 7K

Out of curiosity, I just did a search on cycletrader for 4 year old fatboys nationwide for $6000 or less. None showed up.
Where did you see them for under $5K?

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Originally posted by Jager:
HD value is down 23% in the last year. They've been closing plants, shifting to York and planning the move to Thailand long before this steel/aluminium tariff stuff came up. They're using it to blow smoke to cover their already money concerned decisions.

Not accurate, HD closed one plant in Kansas City that made the Dyna line as well as the V-Rod (incidentally the bike designed to bridge between HD and non HD riders, designed by Porsche, very fast) and Sportsters. The vrod and Dyna models were discontinued.

The dyna line was merged into the Softail line to combine the styles with one chassis, reducing costs and overhead. Most analysts would call that smart business.

At the time they closed the KCMO plant they increased the size of the Yorktown PA plant and added almost as many jobs as they removed in KCMO. So in the end, the only thing lost was tax revenue to Kansas City. It was and is a smart move, the new Softail/Dyna is a nice well made bike with more power.

quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
They're bikes are not selling. Puff and pant about all their 'innovation, improvements and greatness' and still, people are just losing interest. Why pay 20k for a 50 hp couch on wheels when you can get a real motorcycle that you don't half to trailer it most of the time to get it any distance?

I've got over 70K on several of my past HD's, I'd say its well over 500,000 since 2000 over all the bikes. Everyone I ride with rides nobody has a trailer. Not saying that some people don't trailer, but if you live in Upstate NY in late Feb it's a bit hard to ride any bike through 4 inches of snow and 20 degree weather.

Current HD's have close to 100 HP and over 100 ft pounds of tq and that's the base 107, you can get a 114 or 117 or order in a 120. My Heritage with the 124 puts out over 160 HP and will flat mess up the minds of rice and kraut bike riders. Nothing like a fat guy on a "old design" bike smoking a cigar pulling your BMW 1200 during a 70 mph roll on.

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Originally posted by Jager:
Nothing in their inventory is exciting. Not to me, anyway. And the American made motorcycle hype is going bye bye. It's quickly becoming snake oil, anymore.

That's just your perspective, as a whole HD buyers don't want modern looking aero packaged bikes, and they don't buy metric. Historical attempts have all failed. HD does have to find ways to get younger buyers in but it's not simply design related, it's more systemic of their generations ideas.

Millennial are just not into cars or bikes like our generations, they are into tech, to them the new iPhone is more exciting than a new Corvette, Porsche or Bike, it's generational and a bigger problem than HD's design. They are not buying many cars much less motorcycles.

It's why Uber, downtown living are on the up, it's also true that many kids at the age of 16 to 19 are not even getting drivers licenses, my neighbors son didn't get one until they forced him at 20, his mom drove him everywhere and in that age group it's socially acceptable, where us old farts looked to having a vehicle as a sign of maturity and freedom.

And yet Triumph has no problem selling to the younger crowd. HD sat on their thumbs during the whole retro bike craze of the last decade. All they had to build was a more upright sportster.

Hd has built a line of Hipster Sportys, and that's another form of competition HD didn't have a few years back, Triumph makes a cool bike I like them reminds me of my 78 Suzuki GS 400.

You can check out the sporty line at HD's web site, they have the 48, Iron 883, roaster, all with retro looks. hey they even have the Iron 1200 for those who long for the good ol 70's days LOL

I'm not saying they are perfect, they are not, but the bashing of quality, design, lack of innovation, all those comments are baseless, there have been a lot more innovations in the past few years starting in 09 with a complete frame redesign on the FL line to a complete redesign of the softail line last year.

Harley has to balance moving forward for new customers without alienating its core buyers.

HD is not unlike any other company, they are battling for customers, a changing demographic, aging customers, they've been around over 100 years, they will figure it out..

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HD is not unlike any other company, they are battling for customers...

Well they lost this customer after I've owned three Harleys.

I rode a Gold Wing for 7 years and now a BMW R1200R and neither motorcycle needed $1500-3000 of motor or suspension work to undo the cheap overpriced factory crap.

The HD dealerships are another issue mentioned in a previous post.

My 1986 FJ1200 is air-cooled, has 4 valves per cylinder, and made 111hp, 81ft/lb of torque at the rear wheel on the dyno. We start our top gear roll-ons at 100mph. Bringing up valves per cylinder and power numbers Harley's are making in 2018 as some sort of sign that Harley Davidson is keeping up with the times is silly at best.

The brand is worn out or saturated. There was a time, 20 years ago, I wanted a Harley. They were hard to get and somewhat cool. Now they're a dime a dozen. I'm 50, can afford it, and have zero interest in H-D. There's a half dozen other motorcycles I find interesting though.

Pretty soon, the only people buying Harleys will be unemployed NFL players.

Millennial here, with motorcycle endorsement. (Currently drive a stick shift 4 door, as we have a new baby)

Harley Davidson brand image is, as stated before, that of elderly and obese males who are obsessed with power ratios and ear-splitting exhaust notes.

I’m a big fan of what the president of McLaren recently stated... basically, the horsepower race has reached it’s marginal peak, and weight is the new frontier.

It’s why Miatas are so much fun to drive, and can be translated to the two wheel world as well. Make it light, easy to handle, and durable - if I wanted a heavy, hard to maneuver beast I’d buy a pickup truck.

https://www.cars.mclaren.press/en-us/releases/590