Its been a bit since I have done business travel but I did some last week and ended up with a vehicle that had multiple driver assist features. I was not happy with the vehicle trying to do things I didn't want it to do.

As I was staring out the windshield I recalled discussions around the impact of auto-pilot and other features and the negative impact on piloting skills. In essence, pilots brought up in the age of automated systems did not have the stick and rudder skills of older pilots, and older pilots immersed in this environment lost the sharpness of those skills. The result is an inability of pilots to realize when things were awry and react accordingly.

I wonder if the same is going on or will go on with vehicles. The vehicles are responding based on programming but in an evasive or emergency situation that is often NOT the optimal response.

I'd like to open it up to discussion. Personally, I want control of the vehicle. I'll engage cruise control on the freeway or long stretches but still want hands on wheel and feet on pedals to reach to any unexpected situations.

Thoughts?

I can imagine the confusion of getting into an unfamiliar car and have all the assists turned on. I don't know how rental companies will deal with this as we move into the future.

We bought my wife a 2021 Subaru Outback a couple of years ago and I am still learning all the ins and outs of the computerized beast. It came with a "War and Peace" sized cluster of manuals.

RMD

You are paying for the rental. therefore, you should have a choice in what vehicle you get. I wouldn't want any company giving me a vehicle that was other than requested

quote:

Originally posted by odin:
You are paying for the rental. therefore, you should have a choice in what vehicle you get. I wouldn't want any company giving me a vehicle that was other than requested

While that’s true, you can only choose from what they have available.

Last month, I drove across the country in a rental. I was able to choose from all of four midsize vehicles at the little airport we rented out of. It had lane assist and auto braking. I turned that stuff off first thing.

And yes, I think it will eventually lead to a dulling of skills. There’s been more than once or twice for me on the road where the correct course of action was a lane change at speed, because stopping in time wasn’t going to happen. I could foresee the automated system trying to merely stop.

I find the "assist" functions dangerous. That's in contrast to the informational aids such as the rear back-up camera or the proximity warning beeps when parking and getting close to something.

Our car has the crash detection function and it indeed is dangerous. It has applied the brakes and refused to let me move when trying to turn immediately behind oncoming traffic. It thought I was turning into the oncoming car rather than just behind it.

Lane departure and lane centering are also dangerous imho. We had a rental this summer that kept fighting me. I had to google on my phone how to turn it off (no owners manual in the car).

The fuel economy feature of engine auto off-start at red lights is also dangerous imo. It does not save fuel unless the engine is off for at least about 10 seconds, and around here it is rare to be stopped for that long unless being the first at the red light. We have one intersection that requires a quick acceleration to be safe because of always speeding vehicles on the cross street (mostly large pickups and construction vehicles not paying attention) and many which run the stop sign.

If you are polite and assertive they will turn them off or give you another vehicle. I once spent thirty minutes years back attempting to turn on the headlights. Apparently I was not the first guy having the issue.

They're stupid. IMO they encourage inattention and over-reliance on technology. Just as bad as a damn cell phone. I dread the day that self-driving cars are released to the masses.

I loathe ADAS. On every vehicle I’ve driven (rentals, and on a recent purchase) you can turn the shit off. Most of it will stay off, the intrusive stuff, other things you have to turn off manually every time you start it.

I will be interested in the future when self driving vehicles are offered and if I can get a cheap one. Basically my own private chauffeur where I get in the back seat and tell Hal9000 where to go. It’s so congested now where I live due to millions moving here that daily driving chores are something I don’t want any part of any longer. Performance/sport driving is a completely different matter and I’ll be tackling mountain road turns until I’m dead or unable. So no interest in ADAS until it’s fully autonomous. Where I don’t have to do anything but be a passenger.

A rental is what it is. You can accept it or look for another. Chances are you have very little choice.

I was really looking to dive into whether autodrive or driver assist functions were reducing the base driving skills required to safely operate a motor vehicle in an unexpected or emergency situation.

I hate all the driver aids. Until recently, I traveled a lot for work, about 100 flights a year. I would spend 5-10 mins in each rental getting everything all adjusted and turning off all the lane departure, auto braking crap. Some of them are buried way down in the car computer menus and most are way too intrusive. I also hate the auto stop feature, at least there is a button which disables it until you restart the car.

The newer cars are full of various “assist” features. Like most here I’m not a fan of them but can understand that by the time my 2yo granddaughter is old enough to “drive” she might not actually have to.

We bought a model Y on Friday and on the drive home all sort of nanny features were going off. I spent most of Saturday learning about the computer on wheels and how to shut off the nanny’s. But this scateboard is FAST!

quote:

Originally posted by Rightwire:
I was really looking to dive into whether autodrive or driver assist functions were reducing the base driving skills required to safely operate a motor vehicle in an unexpected or emergency situation.

I expect those functions will aid drivers getting into unexpected and emergency situations! They'll feel even more comfortable looking down at their phone with the adaptive cruise control and lane centering functions turned on. Or they'll be looking over their shoulder chatting with backseat passengers. They'll be unaware of a dangerous situation developing because they are not paying attention.

As to decreasing basic driving skills, I don't think we're at that point yet with the technology. But getting close to it with adaptive cruise control, which reduces the need to constantly monitor and understand the speed of the vehicle in front. It requires a predictive skill to then adjust one's own speed to remain safe.

The parallel parking function definitely eliminates the need for that skill, but around here I think that skill was already gone! I do see that some manufacturers have a perpendicular parking function now. Anyone who is so unskilled as to need the car to park itself should not be driving!

I do believe all the assist functions are setting up the younger generation to happily embrace fully autonomous vehicles whenever those are widely available. They don't see driving as an activity, the see cars as an appliance.

The 2021 Subaru Forester we had decided emergency braking was necessary because a damn tumbleweed blew across the highway directly in front of me. Fortunately I didn’t have some nitwit tailgating me when it happened.

Something else to consider: As these nanny systems become even more prevalent, how will driver education programs for teens and new drivers respond to them? Dumb down the already inadequate training they receive now? IMHO, new drivers should be trained to:
How not to under / over steer.
Skid control. Proper use of anti-lock brakes. Braking, handling and maneuvering at speeds above 60 MPH. Control techniques for rain, ice, snow and reduced visibility. Stopping and following distances at various speeds.
If we actually train people to drive skillfully, maybe we would not need nanny systems!.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:

quote:

Originally posted by odin:
You are paying for the rental. therefore, you should have a choice in what vehicle you get. I wouldn't want any company giving me a vehicle that was other than requested

While that’s true, you can only choose from what they have available.

Yep, and as of the 2022 model year, 50+% of all new cars sold had driver assist technology features. That percentage only continues to climb.

So considering that rental cars tend to be exclusively newer cars, the percentage of rental cars without this is already almost certainly the minority.

And there will be a time, likely within the next decade, when you won't be able to find one without it.


(Besides, all of the times I've rented a car, you've only been able to select from categories of vehicles - like a a midsize luxury sedan, or compact SUV, or a full size pickup, etc. Not a specific vehicle, and certainly not a specific vehicle with/without a certain specific set of technology features.)

The self parking! My wife’s car has that. I’ve tried it just for fun on a couple of occasions. Getting it to work is fairly complicated. So much so, that I could park the car three times myself in the time it takes to get it set up to park itself and then actually park itself.

I have no use for adaptive cruise control until it can monitor what’s going on a half a mile ahead and choose a lane that let’s me keep going the same speed. The good news is, the Teslas leave enough room in front of themselves to merge a semi into. I’ve seen it more than a few times where a Tesla is in the left lane, people swing to the right to around it, merge in front of it, and the Tesla slows down to compensate.

My Volvo XC90 has a number of these features, including active lane centering via their pilot Assist feature. I love it. I probably won't own another daily without it. I think that it reduces the cognitive load of driving and makes it easier to focus on the environment. I use it constantly. For a note connected driving experience, I've got Porsches.

quote:

Originally posted by arfmel:
The 2021 Subaru Forester we had decided emergency braking was necessary because a damn tumbleweed blew across the highway directly in front of me.

I had a Subaru hit the brakes without my input when a car turned left in front of me a little closer than I liked, but nowhere near unsafely. I had anticipated it because I - wait for it - was already driving defensively. I could have braked if necessary.

I don't mind a warning that I'm about to hit something while backing up or straying from my lane, although some are annoying, like the GM SUVs with the butt buzzer in the seat. They can be useful at times. But I don't want my car making corrections for me against my wishes. These systems cannot gauge the intent of the driver or anticipate every situation. As long as my 2009 car will run, I'm keeping it.

It's especially difficult when the driver is asleep.

A side effect of not making decisions, not evaluating conditions, not gauging times and not using your brain is,
It wants to time out by going to sleep.

Older age groups, and very tired or over taxed younger people are susceptible to dozing 0ff.

I’ve been saying for years that the so called “improvements” to new cars that do everything for the driver are causing drivers to get worse and worse at, well, driving. The only one I subscribe to is the ubiquitous back up camera, and only for lining up the hitch for trailering. Pretty much everything else makes people dependent on systems that degrade driving skills.