My comment may piss many off but such is life. My view on rails is that they may be great for operators like SEALs or SWAT but for Joe Citizen only for mall ninja daydreams. I much prefer night sights and if I need to augment I'll do it with a flashlight. The later's beam can be moved around independent of where the gun's barrel is pointed which is an advantage from my knothole.

So for me, no $%^&*(! pistols with stupid ass RAILS.

quote:

Originally posted by bald1:
My comment may piss many off but such is life. My view on rails is that they may be great for operators like SEALs or SWAT but for Joe Citizen only for mall ninja daydreams. I much prefer night sights and if I need to augment I'll do it with a flashlight. The later's beam can be moved around independent of where the gun's barrel is pointed which is an advantage from my knothole.

So for me, no $%^&*(! pistols with stupid ass RAILS.

It is fun having someone that has no clue about shooting in low light situations lecturing people that actually have low light shooting training on what is the best for shooting in low light situations.

I don't care if it has a rail or not. Does a pistol without a rail look better? To me, yes, but as long as a pistol functions, doesn't really matter to me.

Meh.

I have guns that have rails. I have guns that don't. If I have a gun with a rail on it, and I don't want to mount a light on it, I don't.

If I have a gun that doesn't have a rail, and I want to put a light on it, it is a bitch.

I fail to reeeeaaaaaaallllllllyyyyyyy see the big deal. I buy guns to use. If I chew a holster up, I buy a new holster. A holster isn't made to last 100 years. Buy a good holster (leather) and it will still last you a dozen years (or more) with a railed gun. Stuff breaks. None of it is meant to last forever.

Take a good home defense course from someone who really knows tactics, and how to read/use low light, and a WML becomes a must for concealed carry. You learn that lesson pretty quick. Night sights do nothing for ID'ing your target. I get lazy and don't always carry a gun with a light but I know better. There is no flashlight technique out there that will be as repeatable as turning on a WML.

YMMV.

Out of curiosity, I just looked at all my shooter pistols. 9 of them and only 2 have rails.
Glock 23 and an HK.
I prefer non rail but wouldn't throw the railed ones away for sure.
Do rails serve a purpose? Absolutely. You can use it for lasers, lights or whatever you choose. You can also use it for nothing and that's fine too.

quote:

Originally posted by PPGMD:

quote:

Originally posted by bald1:
My comment may piss many off but such is life. My view on rails is that they may be great for operators like SEALs or SWAT but for Joe Citizen only for mall ninja daydreams. I much prefer night sights and if I need to augment I'll do it with a flashlight. The later's beam can be moved around independent of where the gun's barrel is pointed which is an advantage from my knothole.

So for me, no $%^&*(! pistols with stupid ass RAILS.

It is fun having someone that has no clue about shooting in low light situations lecturing people that actually have low light shooting training on what is the best for shooting in low light situations.

Who the $%^& is lecturing? I simply and plainly stated my view and preferences. If you can't handle it don't resort to twisting and castigating. It's NOT appreciated!

And FWIW there is plenty of ambient light in my house to make my preferences work well in a SD mode. At my age (look at my signature) and health situation I'm not "out and about" much. Got it?

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Meh.

I have guns that have rails. I have guns that don't. If I have a gun with a rail on it, and I don't want to mount a light on it, I don't.

If I have a gun that doesn't have a rail, and I want to put a light on it, it is a bitch.

I fail to reeeeaaaaaaallllllllyyyyyyy see the big deal. I buy guns to use. If I chew a holster up, I buy a new holster. A holster isn't made to last 100 years. Buy a good holster (leather) and it will still last you a dozen years (or more) with a railed gun. Stuff breaks. None of it is meant to last forever.

Take a good home defense course from someone who really knows tactics, and how to read/use low light, and a WML becomes a must for concealed carry. You learn that lesson pretty quick. Night sights do nothing for ID'ing your target. I get lazy and don't always carry a gun with a light but I know better. There is no flashlight technique out there that will be as repeatable as turning on a WML.

YMMV.

I have a box full of unused/unliked holsters, and a drawer full of holsters that I like and use. The drawer is basically full repeats of the same 2 models of OWB and 1 model of IWB in a variety of pistol models and colors.

You mention "good leather holsters", and "a WML is a must for concealed carry". I see a number of kydex holsters or duty holsters with an option for a WML. Looking at the "gun lists" of the 3 different holster makers that I prefer, in leather, I see provisions for rails, but none for WML. Any hints on what quality leather holster makers are making good concealed carry leather holsters, that accommodate a WML?

quote:

Originally posted by bald1:

quote:

Originally posted by PPGMD:

quote:

Originally posted by bald1:
My comment may piss many off but such is life. My view on rails is that they may be great for operators like SEALs or SWAT but for Joe Citizen only for mall ninja daydreams. I much prefer night sights and if I need to augment I'll do it with a flashlight. The later's beam can be moved around independent of where the gun's barrel is pointed which is an advantage from my knothole.

So for me, no $%^&*(! pistols with stupid ass RAILS.

It is fun having someone that has no clue about shooting in low light situations lecturing people that actually have low light shooting training on what is the best for shooting in low light situations.

Who the $%^& is lecturing? I simply and plainly stated my view and preferences. If you can't handle it don't resort to twisting and castigating. It's NOT appreciated!

And FWIW there is plenty of ambient light in my house to make my preferences work well in a SD mode. At my age (look at my signature) and health situation I'm not "out and about" much. Got it?

You are lecturing, calling the idea of having a weapon light as a civilian is mall ninja daydream.

Having a weapon mounted light for home defense is a damned good idea.

Having one hand free is almost never a bad idea, and being able to put a light on someone may well help prevent shooting and killing someone you call "loved one".

Yeah, call me a ninja.

I live alone, but still want to know what I am shooting at, if I ever have to do so.

But can someone explain putting a rail on a CCW gun, making it heavier, wider, rougher, all so you can mount a light on it, making it wider still, heavier still, and to use the weapon mounted light, you either violate the gun safety rules or if you know what you are pointing your gun at, you didn't need the WML in the first place.

I posted a very sarcastic reply, but deleted it. The old "violate safety rules" myth is something repeated for unknown reasons. It appears to be done by people that don't like weapon lights, and for sure by repeating this, do not understand how they work, nor the tactics of using them.

It has been around as long as WML's have.

I really don't understand the hate of having a light on a gun. People are passionate about the hate. My view is sorta like how I feel about people that don't like guns. You don't want a gun, don't buy one. But, leave me be to buy what I want. The market put rails on guns because the anti-rail crowd is in the minority. People want the option to be able to put stuff on guns. I guess somehow this makes the anti-rail crowd angry. So, you hear the myths like "violate safety rules" and name calling like ninja, and all the other trash.

Don't think that there are enough pistols out there without rails? Guess what? There is a business opportunity for you to design your own railless pistol. I bet you'd sell at least 60-70 per year. And that isn't sarcasm. Something I've learned about the internet. It is the 20 percent rule. 20 percent is the maximum that will follow through on an idea. IE- I post something saying "OK, we're going to design this part, who is interested". Out of that number, the maximum number of people that will follow through is 20 percent. That is the maximum. Rails are on pistols because that is what the majority of end users want. If the majority of end users did not want them, they wouldn't be there.

The uncool thing about the internet is that rumors and myths get shared as fact. Most people's exposure to operating in low light is watching a TV cop do the Harries position. The whole "violate safety rules" thing is a prime example of people who do not know what they are talking about.

Let's take a specific. Pieing off a corner. If done correctly, you pull the gun in tight to the body at a slight downward angle. Presenting the gun out in front of you tends to block your vision, and you miss ground level indicators such as feet. You get a couple of feet off of your leading edge of the door way. Then your feet move in the direction that you want to go. The light's beam is bisected on the leading edge. When done correctly, you see your bad guy long before he sees you. And the gun is not pointed at him, or even more so if it is a non-badguy/family member/etc. If you need to shoot at that point, you step out a little more to the direction, push the gun out and break a shot.

And that is one example of the fact that it is a myth.

Next myth is the "oh the light is giving away your position". Guess what? The bad guy likely already knows you are there in most of the cases that you would deploy a light. Better to use good tactics and the light to your advantage.

I highly advise that people that hear and repeat these myths to take a class from someone who understands the strategies and tactics of low light.

To deal with an issue that Jones didn't mention, bulk. These days there are weapon lights that are specifically designed for concealed carry. For example the Surefire XC-1, it was specifically designed to mount on the Glock 19 without being any wider or longer than the stock gun.

But even if you mount a full size X300U on a Glock 19, it isn't that hard to conceal.

I will never own a pistol without a rail again, and have already sold all my non-railed pistols. I guess wanting options makes me a mall ninja?

I don't get the perspective of some folks who not only have preferences, but shit on others for having different preferences. I don't care what you like or use for SD or HD, I'm just happy a fellow law abiding American is armed. But for me, if it's practical to attach a flashlight I will.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

I really don't understand the hate of having a light on a gun. People are passionate about the hate. My view is sorta like how I feel about people that don't like guns. You don't want a gun, don't buy one. But, leave me be to buy what I want. The market put rails on guns because the anti-rail crowd is in the minority. People want the option to be able to put stuff on guns. I guess somehow this makes the anti-rail crowd angry. So, you hear the myths like "violate safety rules" and name calling like ninja, and all the other trash.

Don't think that there are enough pistols out there without rails? Guess what? There is a business opportunity for you to design your own railless pistol. I bet you'd sell at least 60-70 per year. And that isn't sarcasm. Something I've learned about the internet. It is the 20 percent rule. 20 percent is the maximum that will follow through on an idea. IE- I post something saying "OK, we're going to design this part, who is interested". Out of that number, the maximum number of people that will follow through is 20 percent. That is the maximum. Rails are on pistols because that is what the majority of end users want. If the majority of end users did not want them, they wouldn't be there.

Well If I didn't already have multiple holsters, for multiple SIG firearms without rails, it wouldn't irritate me quite so much. If I want to add a 220/226 or 228/229 in a different caliber, or feature set, I get to also buy another ~$350 in holsters that replicate ones that I already have. I may as well consider other manufactures platforms if I have to re-buy leather.

Is it that the market demands rails, or if you don't already have an investment in older models with their associated holsters, it really doesn't matter? As you stated earlier there's no effort in mounting (or not mounting) a light on a gun with a rail. The rub is when you want to mount a light on a gun without a rail. It's also easier to inventory a single model that has a rail.

I'm really not looking to start manufacturing firearms, I've already got a full plate without the additional headaches. If I was, there seem to be a number of 1911 manufacturers doing just fine selling pistols without rails.

As you pointed out the importance of a good leather holster, and how useful a WML is for concealed carry. I'll ask again, can you point out a quality leather holster maker that makes a concealed carry holster that will accommodate a WML? I checked my typical vendors and found nothing. If I can't holster/conceal a gun with a WML, maybe that's why I wouldn't carry one.

By your same logic, if I can't find a leather concealed carry holster for a WML at:

5 shot leather
Alessi
Brommeland
D M Bullard
Del Fatti
Milt Sparks
Red Nichols
Tucker

Is this the market saying that "we'll tolerate a rail but don't need a concealed WML holster"? Is this where I suggest you could start manufacturing them?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: jlb226,

quote:

Originally posted by Nuclear:
But can someone explain putting a rail on a CCW gun, making it heavier, wider, rougher, all so you can mount a light on it, making it wider still, heavier still, and to use the weapon mounted light, you either violate the gun safety rules or if you know what you are pointing your gun at, you didn't need the WML in the first place.

You need a lot more training in low light situations if this is really how you perceive the use of a light in a self defense shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by jlb226:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

I really don't understand the hate of having a light on a gun. People are passionate about the hate. My view is sorta like how I feel about people that don't like guns. You don't want a gun, don't buy one. But, leave me be to buy what I want. The market put rails on guns because the anti-rail crowd is in the minority. People want the option to be able to put stuff on guns. I guess somehow this makes the anti-rail crowd angry. So, you hear the myths like "violate safety rules" and name calling like ninja, and all the other trash.

Don't think that there are enough pistols out there without rails? Guess what? There is a business opportunity for you to design your own railless pistol. I bet you'd sell at least 60-70 per year. And that isn't sarcasm. Something I've learned about the internet. It is the 20 percent rule. 20 percent is the maximum that will follow through on an idea. IE- I post something saying "OK, we're going to design this part, who is interested". Out of that number, the maximum number of people that will follow through is 20 percent. That is the maximum. Rails are on pistols because that is what the majority of end users want. If the majority of end users did not want them, they wouldn't be there.

Well If I didn't already have multiple holsters, for multiple SIG firearms without rails, it wouldn't irritate me quite so much. If I want to add a 220/226 or 228/229 in a different caliber, or feature set, I get to also buy another ~$350 in holsters that replicate ones that I already have. I may as well consider other manufactures platforms if I have to re-buy leather.

Is it that the market demands rails, or if you don't already have an investment in older models with their associated holsters, it really doesn't matter? As you stated earlier there's no effort in mounting (or not mounting) a light on a gun with a rail. The rub is when you want to mount a light on a gun without a rail. It's also easier to inventory a single model that has a rail.

I'm really not looking to start manufacturing firearms, I've already got a full plate without the additional headaches. If I was, there seem to be a number of 1911 manufacturers doing just fine selling pistols without rails.

As you pointed out the importance of a good leather holster, and how useful a WML is for concealed carry. I'll ask again, can you point out a quality leather holster maker that makes a concealed carry holster that will accommodate a WML? I checked my typical vendors and found nothing. If I can't holster/conceal a gun with a WML, maybe that's why I wouldn't carry one.

By your same logic, if I can't find a leather concealed carry holster for a WML at:

5 shot leather
Alessi
Brommeland
D M Bullard
Del Fatti
Milt Sparks
Red Nichols
Tucker

Is this the market saying that "we'll tolerate a rail but don't need a concealed WML holster"? Is this where I suggest you could start manufacturing them?

My point of good leather holsters was people complaining of rails tearing up their holsters without lights. Not weapon mounted lights tearing up leather holsters.
There are literally 100 Kydex/leather hybrids to accommodate guns with lights for concealment. I use Blackpoint.
In the leather realm, both Bianchi and DeSantis makes holsters for guns and lights. Both are good quality.
If you are paying $350 for a holster, you are getting ripped off. SIG has lots of non-railed guns out there. You can even find Glocks without rails if you look. Are they current production? Nope. The world has gone with rails. Mall ninja or not.

There is no need for me to manufacture holsters. There are tons out there, and the market has up and comers like Ozarks that will fill the void. If you contact some of your favorite holster manufacturers, like Sparks, they may accommodate if there is enough requests. Some you mentioned are borderline boutique manufacturers. I'm sure someone would be interested if they don't want one of the ones I've mentioned.

The rest of us will continue to use companies like Ozark, Bladetech, Comp-Tac, and Blackpoint.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by jlb226:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

I really don't understand the hate of having a light on a gun. People are passionate about the hate. My view is sorta like how I feel about people that don't like guns. You don't want a gun, don't buy one. But, leave me be to buy what I want. The market put rails on guns because the anti-rail crowd is in the minority. People want the option to be able to put stuff on guns. I guess somehow this makes the anti-rail crowd angry. So, you hear the myths like "violate safety rules" and name calling like ninja, and all the other trash.

Don't think that there are enough pistols out there without rails? Guess what? There is a business opportunity for you to design your own railless pistol. I bet you'd sell at least 60-70 per year. And that isn't sarcasm. Something I've learned about the internet. It is the 20 percent rule. 20 percent is the maximum that will follow through on an idea. IE- I post something saying "OK, we're going to design this part, who is interested". Out of that number, the maximum number of people that will follow through is 20 percent. That is the maximum. Rails are on pistols because that is what the majority of end users want. If the majority of end users did not want them, they wouldn't be there.

Well If I didn't already have multiple holsters, for multiple SIG firearms without rails, it wouldn't irritate me quite so much. If I want to add a 220/226 or 228/229 in a different caliber, or feature set, I get to also buy another ~$350 in holsters that replicate ones that I already have. I may as well consider other manufactures platforms if I have to re-buy leather.

Is it that the market demands rails, or if you don't already have an investment in older models with their associated holsters, it really doesn't matter? As you stated earlier there's no effort in mounting (or not mounting) a light on a gun with a rail. The rub is when you want to mount a light on a gun without a rail. It's also easier to inventory a single model that has a rail.

I'm really not looking to start manufacturing firearms, I've already got a full plate without the additional headaches. If I was, there seem to be a number of 1911 manufacturers doing just fine selling pistols without rails.

As you pointed out the importance of a good leather holster, and how useful a WML is for concealed carry. I'll ask again, can you point out a quality leather holster maker that makes a concealed carry holster that will accommodate a WML? I checked my typical vendors and found nothing. If I can't holster/conceal a gun with a WML, maybe that's why I wouldn't carry one.

By your same logic, if I can't find a leather concealed carry holster for a WML at:

5 shot leather
Alessi
Brommeland
D M Bullard
Del Fatti
Milt Sparks
Red Nichols
Tucker

Is this the market saying that "we'll tolerate a rail but don't need a concealed WML holster"? Is this where I suggest you could start manufacturing them?

My point of good leather holsters was people complaining of rails tearing up their holsters without lights. Not weapon mounted lights tearing up leather holsters.
There are literally 100 Kydex/leather hybrids to accommodate guns with lights for concealment. I use Blackpoint.
In the leather realm, both Bianchi and DeSantis makes holsters for guns and lights. Both are good quality.
If you are paying $350 for a holster, you are getting ripped off. SIG has lots of non-railed guns out there. You can even find Glocks without rails if you look. Are they current production? Nope. The world has gone with rails. Mall ninja or not.

There is no need for me to manufacture holsters. There are tons out there, and the market has up and comers like Ozarks that will fill the void. If you contact some of your favorite holster manufacturers, like Sparks, they may accommodate if there is enough requests.

I've fiddled with a number of Kydex and Kydex/leather hybrid holsters, and either I've not found the right one, or I'm allergic to Kydex.

The ~$350 is the approximate value of the (3) usual leather holsters that I have per platform. Yes it is repetitive, but they work for me. Every once in a while I'll add in something different.

The original intent of this post had to do with wanting to add another new SIG (of a model I already had) to the stable, and being frustrated with the thought of re-buying holsters.

There was no intent of saying that rails can't be useful or WML are bad. I have guns with rails and I have a WML. I may not use the WML as well as you do, and I'm OK with that. The WML will not mount to my guns w/o rails and I'm OK with that. I have standalone lights as well, and they may be suboptimal and I am OK with that. It may make the best business sense to only manufacture new guns with rails, it still irritates me, but I can understand that. Most of my guns, that do have rails, have nothing mounted to them, and I'm OK with that. I haven't found a practical way to carry concealed with a WML, I may need to look into this, but for the moment I'm OK with that.

The root of my issue is I'd really rather not toss a bunch of holsters, for rails that I don't really want nor need at the moment. If it was a model that I didn't already have multiple holsters for, it really wouldn't be that big of a deal.

fair enough

I bought a really nice car cover for my 1969 Camaro and the bastards went and changed the body style.
See how silly this is?