Fair enough. I wouldn’t file a claim with UPS. I would dispute the charge with my credit card. I don’t dispute a ton of things but I have disputed enough to understand the process. My CC company (USAA) has absolutely backed my dispute where a product arrived damaged. Regardless of the wording used, the cc company considers a product arriving damaged as unacceptable. Period. In fact, the dispute process is the single biggest reason to use a cc for larger purchases. They will absolutely fight for you.

Second lesson I learned with buying stuff. The myth of how USPS money orders protect the buyer and seller. That is mostly bunk. It protects the seller. I bought a Beretta on that forum and the guy disappeared. I actually think he died and his son cashed the MO. The PO and the “inspectors” could have cared less. I send cash now for smaller purchases because unless the mo is literally lost, they aren’t paying. My experience.

Back on topic. In this scenario I would win the cc dispute. I have no doubt at all. Or very little. Selling product that was inappropriately packaged alone would win the dispute. If you’ve ever disputed something on a cc you know what I’m talking about. There is a process and you need to document your attempts at resolution. Packing a 50 lb of ammo with shipping tape is not even close to appropriate.

Anyway, good talk. Thanks for all the input even if you disagree.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: pedropcola,

quote:

Originally posted by joel9507:
I am not saying buying shipping insurance from a retailer is a good buy - I generally don't insure things like this - but that's what it does.

To each their own, but I've better things to do with the limited time God gives me on this earth than to do battle with sellers, shippers or CC companies when I can avoid the possibility of it all for a paltry $3.

So, to my way of thinking, the OP's "Beware" is more a testament to the value of Buds' insurance coverage.

(To anybody who's confused: It would appear Joel9507 deleted his post after I'd already started my response to it.)

Never seen anyone cry so hard over $3 that saved them $100 before.
If you are upset still maybe someone can get out some crayons and draw you a picture.

Now I'm off to buy something from the good folks at Buds to offset this silliness.

You see, Ryan you aren’t reading what I said. My issue as ensigmatic just said is that if you think buying insurance from Buds is protecting you, you are just wrong. Name the scenario where you are protected. I just pointed out very clearly, very rationally, that in this exact scenario it didn’t protect me in the slightest. It led me me to question what scenario Bud’s “insurance” would be beneficial. Yes to all you 3 dollar guys, it’s 3 dollars. My point is, my warning is, them selling this insurance is a scam. Pay the money don’t pay the money you end up in the same spot.

Do your own research, I’ve already lived this for different things so I’m speaking from first hand information. If UPS loses this package and it never gets delivered some of you are under the incorrect assumption that your only recourse is to file with UPS which is limited to 100 dollars. Respectfully, you are wrong. You would dispute the charge on your credit card. The paperwork I alluded to will take very little effort. It’s a form that you attach pertinent information. In this case it would be simple. You ordered and paid for exhibit A, it never arrived, the cc will back you in this dispute regardless of Buds policies. Period. Call your cc company.

Seriously, without trying to sound lecturing it seems like many of you are unfamiliar with the power of cc purchases. If you write a check for any item it’s you vs them. You probably would be forced down the civil claim road. With the cc behind you, if you are found in the right, they refund your money, you keep whatever was delivered, that’s how it works. You have to show you made the appropriate actions to rectify, the cc reaches out to the business. If they won’t budge or offer an appropriate solution and the cc decides you are correct you win. Period. No pay, no return. I have never lost a cc dispute in 30 years. Solely because I have never disputed something frivolous. Ever. It’s why I started this thread because I was pissed at the absolute piss poor attempt at packaging and the sheer amount of water it had to have been exposed to to literally have drops of water inside the individual bricks. I came on here venting and you guys correctly set me straight on my first bitch. I was wrong. I admitted it. I don’t think I’m wrong that Buds insurance is a scam that only benefits Buds. Yes it is $3. It is a $3 scam.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
If UPS loses this package and it never gets delivered some of you are under the incorrect assumption that your only recourse is to file with UPS which is limited to 100 dollars. Respectfully, you are wrong. You would dispute the charge on your credit card.

The problem I have with that recourse is now you're burning the seller for the shipper's failure to perform. Personally, I regard that as unethical--depending upon the seller's FOB ("Freight On Board" or "Free On Board") policy.

Usually the terms of the sale are "FOB Origin." That means that once it leaves the seller's dock, the buyer owns it. All costs and liabilities are now the buyer's. When you dispute a charge by the seller due to a shipper's failure to perform, in such a case, you are essentially seeking to unilaterally amend the contract you had with the seller after the fact. Nowhere of which I'm aware is that allowed by law or custom. (N.B.: IANAL.) The CC company may make it easy to facilitate that, and the seller may accept that abrogation of your contract with them--probably because they've determined it's not worth the hassle or customer ill will, but that doesn't make it right.

I note, however, Bud's does not explicitly state anywhere I can find their FOB policy. They imply it's FOB Origin in their statement: "BudsGunShop.com is not responsible for uninsured items lost or damaged in transit."

Bess your heart. It's terrible that you are having such a hard time understanding that your 3 dollar insurance purchase got you a no questions asked refund.

1. Buds is the shipper. They are the only entity that can enter a UPS insurance CLAIM.

2. When YOU CHOSE to pay for the extra insurance (all whopping $3) Buds passed this money straight through to UPS upon creating the shipping label. They do not make money on this.

3. They are fronting you the money for the return from their own pocket betting on UPS giving them a refund sometime in the next few months after THEY DO THE LEG WORK and wait for their money to be refunded due to UPS damaging the package.

4. If it was really a fair practice Buds would have told you that you will get your refund only after UPS gives them the claim money. Giving it to you up front is above and beyond good customer service.

5. You should immediately re-title this thread to "Buds is a great company that takes care of it's customers even at a potential loss to themselves"

quote:

Originally posted by Ryanp225:
Bess your heart. It's terrible that you are having such a hard time understanding that your 3 dollar insurance purchase got you a no questions asked refund.

1. Buds is the shipper. They are the only entity that can enter a UPS insurance CLAIM

Incorrect. Their statement, under "Shipping" on their site, suggests FOB Origin. In such a case the shipper's contract is with the buyer, not the seller. Thus it is the buyer that submits a shipping loss or damage claim.

In FOB Origin the seller's responsibility ends when the shipper has accepted the item for transport.

You guys are nuts. If you order a 250 shipment of ammo and it never arrives and are willing to accept 100 dollars. Good for you. As a seller they are responsible to actually get the shipment to the buyer by whatever means they choose. It’s just business. If you but buy something and it doesn’t arrive it isn’t on the shoulders of the buyer. I respectfully think you guys are being obtuse. If a purchased item never arrives the seller is on the hook. Period. If you think that’s unethical ok. I think it’s business. You also are somehow using the “you broke it you bought” methodology. You break it in a store accidentally you haven’t bought anything unless you agree to. Secondly, if you do agree you certainly shouldn’t pay retail. Ethically you ask them what it costs them in the first place and pay replacement cost.

I am quite comfortable standing before my maker if I disputed paying for a lost package. But keep harping on the 3 dollar straw man. (Ryan I’m not arguing about 3 dollars I am arguing the insurance isn’t insurance in any real sense, but you keep bringing up my loss of 3 dollars) I knew you would appreciate that ensigmatic. Lol

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:

quote:

Originally posted by Ryanp225:
Bess your heart. It's terrible that you are having such a hard time understanding that your 3 dollar insurance purchase got you a no questions asked refund.

1. Buds is the shipper. They are the only entity that can enter a UPS insurance CLAIM

Incorrect. Their statement, under "Shipping" on their site, suggests FOB Origin. In such a case the shipper's contract is with the buyer, not the seller. Thus it is the buyer that submits a shipping loss or damage claim.

In FOB Origin the seller's responsibility ends when the shipper has accepted the item for transport.

I deal with UPS claims almost every day and 100% of the time they ask that the shipper initiates the claim even in FOB Origin.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
As a seller they are responsible to actually get the shipment to the buyer by whatever means they choose. ... If you but buy something and it doesn’t arrive it isn’t on the shoulders of the buyer. ... If a purchased item never arrives the seller is on the hook. Period.

You can repeat that until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't change the law.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
You also are somehow using the “you broke it you bought” methodology.

No, I'm trying to educate you regarding the laws relating to shipping.

Since you're apparently more interested in what you believe than what the law reads, this is probably futile, but here:

quote:

Freight on Board (FOB), also referred to as Free on Board, is an international commercial law term published by the International Chamber of Commerce (ICC). It indicates the point at which the costs and risks of shipped goods shift from the seller to the buyer. In modern domestic shipping, the term is used to describe the time when the seller is no longer responsible for the shipped goods and when the buyer is responsible for paying the transport costs.

When it is indicated as “FOB Origin,” it means that the transfer occurs at the seller’s shipping dock when the goods are safely on board the ship. The buyer takes responsibility for the transport cost and liability during transportation.

Ref: What is Freight On Board (FOB)?

As I noted: Nowhere does Bud's explicitly note their FOB terms, but they strongly suggest they're FOB Origin in their statement:

quote:

BudsGunShop.com is not responsible for uninsured items lost or damaged in transit.

Ref: Shipping & Returns: Shipping

I assume you read their shipping and returns policy before entering into your contract with them?

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
But keep harping on the 3 dollar straw man.

I don't think that term means what you think it means.

Why don't you spell out what you think the resolution should have been.

Money refunded?, Keep Ammo?, Both? Perhaps add a discount coupon for future use?

Buds didn't make out, they were not repaid against the lost of the sale that is being refunded, your "insurance" meant you got made whole because Buds agreed to refund your money should the shipment be damaged or lost.

It doesn't say you get to profit from the loss.

Buds lost money on the deal, there is no 3rd party insurance carrier...

If you had not purchased the insurance, what would the outcome have been?

What do you want the outcome to be?

I guess I still don't understand what your complaint is with Bud's.
UPS will not accept a package like you described so it sounds like they damaged it in transit and taped it up or poorly repackaged it and it made it to you anyway.
The ammo itself is likely just fine, just the boxes were damaged (but not by Bud's).
Exactly what is you expect them to do for you?

quote:

Originally posted by cas:
The insurance bought you exactly what is happening.

No insurance, you keep the wet ammo, too bad, so sad.

You're getting what you paid for.

This.

Don't worry about Buds they will get new packaging and resell the ammo or sell it as loose ammo. I highly doubt anything is wrong with it. I would have no problem shooting it but I would want the individual boxes for easier storage.

quote:

Originally posted by 1s1k:

quote:

Originally posted by cas:
The insurance bought you exactly what is happening.

No insurance, you keep the wet ammo, too bad, so sad.

You're getting what you paid for.

This.

Don't worry about Buds they will get new packaging and resell the ammo or sell it as loose ammo. I highly doubt anything is wrong with it. I would have no problem shooting it but I would want the individual boxes for easier storage.

Brace yourself for another explanation about how credit card disputes work.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
My CC company (USAA) has absolutely backed my dispute where a product arrived damaged. Regardless of the wording used, the cc company considers a product arriving damaged as unacceptable. Period. In fact, the dispute process is the single biggest reason to use a cc for larger purchases. They will absolutely fight for you.

If you've had such stellar results disputing previous claims through your CC why did you pay the $3 for insurance on this purchase?

Can I just send you three bucks and this thread can die?

I'm at a complete loss to understand what is in dispute. The buyer was refunded. The seller paid shipping.

What's the problem? There's no dispute to be had.

Buyer Beware Buds took care of me but I didnt get anything for free.

From this thread, I can tell you with whom I would "beware", in any transactions.

And the the party in reference would not contain the letters B.U.D. or S.