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I need some direction to troubleshoot an extraction problem.

sorry for the long explanation

I have 2- 220 ST 's one is a Langdon with black slide, the other has the standard stainless slide.

Both have internal ejectors, I am left handed and was using the same reloads in both,

Both guns will eject the case apx 20 feet when working correctly.

Both guns freshly cleaned and lubed

I pulled them out the other day and took them to practice to run some stages to get ready for a upcoming match, I had not shot them in 5 years

The Langdon was shooting fine for the first 3- 4 mags then I had a failure to extract the case, empty cartridge was in the chamber and the magazine was trying to load another round behind it. This happened about 3-4 rounds per 100 shots,

Took it apart lubed it up, checked the extractor everything looked good, put it back together, and was still getting the occasional failure to extract. Not consistent but occasional 3-4 rounds per 100.

It was getting dark and I put the Langdon aside and decided to run the standard 220 ST the rest of the evening, it ran well no problems, took it to the match and had no problems at all with it.

Where do I start the trouble shooting an occasional problem?

Should I start with a new Ejector?

Someone said limp wristing?
But I shot the other ST with no problems

Scrape carbon from under the ejector - done

Bad brass? it was a mixture of brass in reloads,
the bullet, powder were all the same, the brass which did not eject appeared similar to all of the other pieces. And the same reloads worked in the standard ST.

Any thoughts?


RC
 
Posts: 1907 | Location: Indiana | Registered: March 17, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I was a police armorer before I retired and worked on the P220ST for over 10 years. It was our standard duty weapon. Occasionally I had to replace the extractor occasionally but the number one extraction related problem I delt with was the locking block. I have never been able to figure out why. No cracks or visible damage. I would go to the range and start swapping out parts. When I would switch out the locking block the extraction problems stopped. To confirm it I would put the bad locking block in another P220ST that worked fine and it would start malfunctioning. I would also check the recoil spring if the gun is getting old. Hard to say what is wrong without actually seeing the weapon. Good luck.
 
Posts: 46 | Location: Ohio | Registered: December 20, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I bought a P220ST when they first came out.
At the time there was a big problem with the extractors. Sig denied there was a problem but would send out a few extractors if you complained about it. A new extractor always solved the problem, in my case, for about 700 rounds.

Bruce Gray addressed the problem and did find that the factory internal extractor was indeed designed incorrectly. He devised a new extractor and machining to the gun to solve the problem.
I would contact Bruce Gray and get his input.
 
Posts: 4245 | Location: Chicago, IL, USA: | Registered: November 17, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thanks

For the responses

It appears it may not be a simple or inexpensive fix

I will give Bruce a call to discuss this

I will also check some pricing and availability on extractors and locking blocks


RC
 
Posts: 1907 | Location: Indiana | Registered: March 17, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Any up-dates?
 
Posts: 4245 | Location: Chicago, IL, USA: | Registered: November 17, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hello

Sorry for the late response

I dropped off the forum for a bit, life has been getting in the way,

No good updates, I had to put that gun aside for a bit

But I did purchase and install a new extractor, and the problem is still there.

A buddy took it and super detail cleaned, lubed and reviewed it, I shot 2 mags it was looking good , and then failure..

I called Sig and they advised to send it in for a Service where they will go through it completely, review and replace parts and springs as needed etc for less than $150.00 including freight, then test fire it to make sure its working correctly, If I do that I may need to locate my original trigger bar ,as I added a Gray Guns short reset in a previous life and Sig indicated they do remove any non stock parts replace them with stock and charge me extra for it.

I talked to a Gun Smith at Gray Guns and he did not have a lot of details on Bruce's modification but it was $200 + freight, but he guaranteed it will work when they were done and be reliable.

Everyone mentioned the ammo and maybe I will have to get some more factory ammo to try along with my reloads before I send it to anyone, to take that out of the equation as the Smith at Gray Guns advised trying to add more powder if I am not at max load to see if that affects it.

He also suggested swapping extractors with the 220 that is working, which I had not done yet.

Everyone also asked if I could replicate the problem consistently and I can not. sometimes its every other mag, sometimes its 4 rounds in 100

I will post again after I have something else to report. Its too nice of a gun to just sit there and look good.

Thanks for the thoughts


RC
 
Posts: 1907 | Location: Indiana | Registered: March 17, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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From my experience I would not waste the time or money sending it to Sig.
Sending it to Bruce would be my only option if I wanted the gun to be reliable.
 
Posts: 4245 | Location: Chicago, IL, USA: | Registered: November 17, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thanks for the input, I called GrayGuns to discuss my problem with Bruce and if his extractor modification was the answer, he has not been around when I called, the gunsmith I talked to there advised talking to Bruce, he did advise anything they did was guaranteed for life.

I believe the guarantee, as I have had great dealing over the years with Bruce and GrayGuns, I am just hung up at all of the cost for shipping back and forth that may beat me up.

I did try installing the extractor from my 220 that does not have a problem and the extraction problem is still there.


I searched the net for new 220 locking blocks but did not find any

If I were to try and swap locking blocks between my 220’s to see if that corrects the problem is there any fit issues I may have?

Do they have to be fit to each individual gun?


I’ll probably be reviewing or posting questions next on how best to mail and receive guns, hopefully I can avoid getting a FFL involved if I send it off.

Thanks again


RC
 
Posts: 1907 | Location: Indiana | Registered: March 17, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I sent you an email.
 
Posts: 46 | Location: Ohio | Registered: December 20, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by USMC2PD:
I sent you an email.


Just a note email was not received
Please try again

Thanks


RC
 
Posts: 1907 | Location: Indiana | Registered: March 17, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Extraction Problem update

The problem is still there,

I was finally able to talk to Bruce at Grayguns
He is a great guy and all of my dealing with him in training classes and gunsmithing have always been top notch, so I respect his comments

He explained that the extractor sits low and needs to grab the rim higher up to extract on a reliable basis, his design involves recutting the extractor channel and installing a redesigned extractor.

He also explained, just as I have experienced, trying different fixes may give a temporary improvement but the problem will crop back up in time. It appears from Bruce and other comments on the internet Sig knows about this problem on the 220 ST and on a X5 model but never really addressed it.

I figured if, I am going to be shooting this gun in competition or actually anywhere I need it to be reliable, once I can work out the shipping issues. and my name is called off of the list at Grayguns I'll be getting his upgrade.

It just pisses me off as I have always believed in the Sig "To Hell and Back" reliability as all of my other Classic P series Sigs never let me down like this. Thanks a lot Sig.....

Thanks guys/gals for the input


RC
 
Posts: 1907 | Location: Indiana | Registered: March 17, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thanks for the update. Please keep us posted.
Did Bruce give you an idea as to the cost of the extractor upgrade?
Can you just send in the slide or do you have to ship the entire gun?

My negative experience with this extraction problem and Sig's refusal to fix or admit the problem insured I would never be adding a Sig to my gun safe ever again!

" To hell and back" translates to me as "to hell with you" guarantee.
 
Posts: 4245 | Location: Chicago, IL, USA: | Registered: November 17, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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After the talk with Bruce
I was directed to fill out a request for service form on line

It indicated they would send me a quote to approve, the web site said the slide mod was $200
Once I approve the quote I wait to send it in until they are ready for it.

There will be some additional FFL cost to handle it and the shipping cost to and from the FFL

I see Grayguns has a 15% sale going on but don’t know if this qualifies,

I will update as I have additional information

Bruce said they really wanted the complete gun to make sure everything was working like it should,

If I insisted they would accept only the slide but they would be testing it on their frame, not as a complete system.

I’ll suck up the extra shipping cost and FFL charges to make sure it’s right.


RC
 
Posts: 1907 | Location: Indiana | Registered: March 17, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Wait, what?
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The Grayguns language “ guaranteed for life” should be all you need to see. Spend the extra $50 and have a dependable firearm you can count on.




“Remember to get vaccinated or a vaccinated person might get sick from a virus they got vaccinated against because you’re not vaccinated.” - author unknown
 
Posts: 14365 | Location: Martinsburg WV | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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