I need some direction to troubleshoot an extraction problem.

sorry for the long explanation

I have 2- 220 ST 's one is a Langdon with black slide, the other has the standard stainless slide.

Both have internal ejectors, I am left handed and was using the same reloads in both,

Both guns will eject the case apx 20 feet when working correctly.

Both guns freshly cleaned and lubed

I pulled them out the other day and took them to practice to run some stages to get ready for a upcoming match, I had not shot them in 5 years

The Langdon was shooting fine for the first 3- 4 mags then I had a failure to extract the case, empty cartridge was in the chamber and the magazine was trying to load another round behind it. This happened about 3-4 rounds per 100 shots,

Took it apart lubed it up, checked the extractor everything looked good, put it back together, and was still getting the occasional failure to extract. Not consistent but occasional 3-4 rounds per 100.

It was getting dark and I put the Langdon aside and decided to run the standard 220 ST the rest of the evening, it ran well no problems, took it to the match and had no problems at all with it.

Where do I start the trouble shooting an occasional problem?

Should I start with a new Ejector?

Someone said limp wristing?
But I shot the other ST with no problems

Scrape carbon from under the ejector - done

Bad brass? it was a mixture of brass in reloads,
the bullet, powder were all the same, the brass which did not eject appeared similar to all of the other pieces. And the same reloads worked in the standard ST.

Any thoughts?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: RC,

I was a police armorer before I retired and worked on the P220ST for over 10 years. It was our standard duty weapon. Occasionally I had to replace the extractor occasionally but the number one extraction related problem I delt with was the locking block. I have never been able to figure out why. No cracks or visible damage. I would go to the range and start swapping out parts. When I would switch out the locking block the extraction problems stopped. To confirm it I would put the bad locking block in another P220ST that worked fine and it would start malfunctioning. I would also check the recoil spring if the gun is getting old. Hard to say what is wrong without actually seeing the weapon. Good luck.

I bought a P220ST when they first came out.
At the time there was a big problem with the extractors. Sig denied there was a problem but would send out a few extractors if you complained about it. A new extractor always solved the problem, in my case, for about 700 rounds.

Bruce Gray addressed the problem and did find that the factory internal extractor was indeed designed incorrectly. He devised a new extractor and machining to the gun to solve the problem.
I would contact Bruce Gray and get his input.

Thanks

For the responses

It appears it may not be a simple or inexpensive fix

I will give Bruce a call to discuss this

I will also check some pricing and availability on extractors and locking blocks

Any up-dates?

Hello

Sorry for the late response

I dropped off the forum for a bit, life has been getting in the way,

No good updates, I had to put that gun aside for a bit

But I did purchase and install a new extractor, and the problem is still there.

A buddy took it and super detail cleaned, lubed and reviewed it, I shot 2 mags it was looking good , and then failure..

I called Sig and they advised to send it in for a Service where they will go through it completely, review and replace parts and springs as needed etc for less than $150.00 including freight, then test fire it to make sure its working correctly, If I do that I may need to locate my original trigger bar ,as I added a Gray Guns short reset in a previous life and Sig indicated they do remove any non stock parts replace them with stock and charge me extra for it.

I talked to a Gun Smith at Gray Guns and he did not have a lot of details on Bruce's modification but it was $200 + freight, but he guaranteed it will work when they were done and be reliable.

Everyone mentioned the ammo and maybe I will have to get some more factory ammo to try along with my reloads before I send it to anyone, to take that out of the equation as the Smith at Gray Guns advised trying to add more powder if I am not at max load to see if that affects it.

He also suggested swapping extractors with the 220 that is working, which I had not done yet.

Everyone also asked if I could replicate the problem consistently and I can not. sometimes its every other mag, sometimes its 4 rounds in 100

I will post again after I have something else to report. Its too nice of a gun to just sit there and look good.

Thanks for the thoughts

From my experience I would not waste the time or money sending it to Sig.
Sending it to Bruce would be my only option if I wanted the gun to be reliable.

Thanks for the input, I called GrayGuns to discuss my problem with Bruce and if his extractor modification was the answer, he has not been around when I called, the gunsmith I talked to there advised talking to Bruce, he did advise anything they did was guaranteed for life.

I believe the guarantee, as I have had great dealing over the years with Bruce and GrayGuns, I am just hung up at all of the cost for shipping back and forth that may beat me up.

I did try installing the extractor from my 220 that does not have a problem and the extraction problem is still there.


I searched the net for new 220 locking blocks but did not find any

If I were to try and swap locking blocks between my 220’s to see if that corrects the problem is there any fit issues I may have?

Do they have to be fit to each individual gun?


I’ll probably be reviewing or posting questions next on how best to mail and receive guns, hopefully I can avoid getting a FFL involved if I send it off.

Thanks again

I sent you an email.

quote:

Originally posted by USMC2PD:
I sent you an email.

Just a note email was not received
Please try again

Thanks

Extraction Problem update

The problem is still there,

I was finally able to talk to Bruce at Grayguns
He is a great guy and all of my dealing with him in training classes and gunsmithing have always been top notch, so I respect his comments

He explained that the extractor sits low and needs to grab the rim higher up to extract on a reliable basis, his design involves recutting the extractor channel and installing a redesigned extractor.

He also explained, just as I have experienced, trying different fixes may give a temporary improvement but the problem will crop back up in time. It appears from Bruce and other comments on the internet Sig knows about this problem on the 220 ST and on a X5 model but never really addressed it.

I figured if, I am going to be shooting this gun in competition or actually anywhere I need it to be reliable, once I can work out the shipping issues. and my name is called off of the list at Grayguns I'll be getting his upgrade.

It just pisses me off as I have always believed in the Sig "To Hell and Back" reliability as all of my other Classic P series Sigs never let me down like this. Thanks a lot Sig.....

Thanks guys/gals for the input

Thanks for the update. Please keep us posted.
Did Bruce give you an idea as to the cost of the extractor upgrade?
Can you just send in the slide or do you have to ship the entire gun?

My negative experience with this extraction problem and Sig's refusal to fix or admit the problem insured I would never be adding a Sig to my gun safe ever again!

" To hell and back" translates to me as "to hell with you" guarantee.

After the talk with Bruce
I was directed to fill out a request for service form on line

It indicated they would send me a quote to approve, the web site said the slide mod was $200
Once I approve the quote I wait to send it in until they are ready for it.

There will be some additional FFL cost to handle it and the shipping cost to and from the FFL

I see Grayguns has a 15% sale going on but don’t know if this qualifies,

I will update as I have additional information

Bruce said they really wanted the complete gun to make sure everything was working like it should,

If I insisted they would accept only the slide but they would be testing it on their frame, not as a complete system.

I’ll suck up the extra shipping cost and FFL charges to make sure it’s right.

The Grayguns language “ guaranteed for life” should be all you need to see. Spend the extra $50 and have a dependable firearm you can count on.

quote:

Originally posted by armored:
Thanks for the update. Please keep us posted.
Did Bruce give you an idea as to the cost of the extractor upgrade?
.

As a follow up

I sent a request in to Grayguns around Christmas to get in line for the 220 slide mod

About a week ago they finally sent a quote for approval and with that approval I moved to another line to wait for an email saying they are ready for me to ship the gun.

The quote was $200 for the slide mod plus $40 for shipping less Christmas sale discount =$210
I will have probably $40 shipping to get it there plus $35 FFL fee
On the return trip it appears I will have to pick it up at a FFL so another $35

Probably $320 overall when done for the repair

Hopefully I can get this wrapped up in the next couple of months just in time for a few matches this spring

Thanks for the update!

quote:

Originally posted by RC:
Extraction Problem update

The problem is still there,

I was finally able to talk to Bruce at Grayguns
He is a great guy and all of my dealing with him in training classes and gunsmithing have always been top notch, so I respect his comments

He explained that the extractor sits low and needs to grab the rim higher up to extract on a reliable basis, his design involves recutting the extractor channel and installing a redesigned extractor.

He also explained, just as I have experienced, trying different fixes may give a temporary improvement but the problem will crop back up in time. It appears from Bruce and other comments on the internet Sig knows about this problem on the 220 ST and on a X5 model but never really addressed it.

I figured if, I am going to be shooting this gun in competition or actually anywhere I need it to be reliable, once I can work out the shipping issues. and my name is called off of the list at Grayguns I'll be getting his upgrade.

It just pisses me off as I have always believed in the Sig "To Hell and Back" reliability as all of my other Classic P series Sigs never let me down like this. Thanks a lot Sig.....

Thanks guys/gals for the input

Sounds like this Sig went to hell, just didn't come back...
FFLs can USPS your pistol for cheap, good luck!!

I figured a 6 month update was in order

My 220 still has the problem, I have communicated with Grayguns a couple of times and I am still on a list with them with no idea when they will be working on 220’s.

I tried a new recoil spring as per a previous suggestion but the failure to extract is still there,

Replacing the locking block was a previous suggestion also and is a final thought, if they were available, and if I could fit it properly if it needed to be fitted.

Yes my Sig went to Hell and didn’t come back.

Thanks for the update.
I should call Bruce and get on the waiting list also.
I had no idea there was such a back log to get repairs, but worth the wait.

Update

I got the call Grayguns are ready to work on some 220’s with extraction problems

Sent it yesterday.

Had to ship through a local shop with an FFL,

with the FFL fee + ship + insurance + return FFL fee it was $105.00