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I was at a steel challenge match yesterday and one of the guys in our group was shooting a P320 with the TXG grip module. Early on him and one of the other shooters were talking about the gun firing out of battery at a match a month ago and ruining the previous grip module. He said he'd discussed it with several gunsmiths and they said they had seen reports of P320's firing out of battery. On his very last shot of the match it happened again. Luckily his hand was ok but he said "that's it I'm done with this gun". What would cause this?
 
Posts: 1181 | Location: DFW Metromess | Registered: May 20, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The 'voluntary upgrade' was supposed to eliminate the OOB issue...Disconnector NOT functioning properly?


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Posts: 8707 | Location: New Hampshire | Registered: October 29, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Anecdotes of the “Gunsmiths have reported …” don’t mean much, and rightfully so because they lack any details and cannot be verified in any reasonable way. If they are so common, why don’t they get reported in places like this forum?

That said, one of the things that was done to P320 pistols when they were “upgraded” following the complaints that they could fire if dropped a certain way was the addition of a disconnector. I don’t know what, if any, mechanism prevented out of battery discharges prior to the change, but if the gun does have a disconnector, it’s easy to demonstrate that it does a good job of doing what it’s supposed to.

The disconnector keeps the striker from being released to fire a cartridge if the slide is not fully forward even a little. In a check I conducted just now, pulling the trigger will not cause a discharge if the slide is pulled to the rear even less than 1/4 inch. When the trigger is disengaged by that small movement of the slide, the barrel hasn’t even started to move down to its unlocked position, and a chambered cartridge is still fully supported by the barrel and breech face. The slide must be much farther out of battery for the case to not be supported as it normally is when the gun is fired. In other words, if the gun has the disconnector, I do not see how an OOB discharge would be possible, or if it occurred due to a small rearward movement of the slide, how anything bad would happen due to an unsupported case.

Slides of pistols like the P320 fail to go into battery for a variety of reasons: bad, out of spec ammunition; inadequate lubrication; and/or weak recoil spring all come to mind. The striker could be released too early, I suppose, if a botched “trigger job” had been performed on the gun to lighten the trigger pull. I can see how at least some of those causes would be likely with competition guns used with handloads. I do not, however, see how a discharge could occur with the slide so far out of battery that the case was unsupported—assuming, of course, that the gun has the disconnector as it should. Anyone who is using a non-upgraded P320 is a fool, but even then I’m not sure if a grossly OOB discharge would be possible.

To return to the reports, though, what exactly happens when all these OOB discharges occur? What did the case look like in the incident you observed? How far out of battery was the slide when it occurred? Did it occur with a non-upgraded pistol? Had the trigger mechanism of the gun been modified for competition purposes? And, most important, how do we know it was an OOB discharge, and not a case failure (if that’s what happened) due to other causes such as an overcharge?




6.4/93.6

“Most men … can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it … would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions … which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their lives.”
— Leo Tolstoy
 
Posts: 47265 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
Anecdotes of the “Gunsmiths have reported …” don’t mean much, and rightfully so because they lack any details and cannot be verified in any reasonable way. If they are so common, why don’t they get reported in places like this forum?

That said, one of the things that was done to P320 pistols when they were “upgraded” following the complaints that they could fire if dropped a certain way was the addition of a disconnector. I don’t know what, if any, mechanism prevented out of battery discharges prior to the change, but if the gun does have a disconnector, it’s easy to demonstrate that it does a good job of doing what it’s supposed to.

The disconnector keeps the striker from being released to fire a cartridge if the slide is not fully forward even a little. In a check I conducted just now, pulling the trigger will not cause a discharge if the slide is pulled to the rear even less than 1/4 inch. When the trigger is disengaged by that small movement of the slide, the barrel hasn’t even started to move down to its unlocked position, and a chambered cartridge is still fully supported by the barrel and breech face. The slide must be much farther out of battery for the case to not be supported as it normally is when the gun is fired. In other words, if the gun has the disconnector, I do not see how an OOB discharge would be possible, or if it occurred due to a small rearward movement of the slide, how anything bad would happen due to an unsupported case.

Slides of pistols like the P320 fail to go into battery for a variety of reasons: bad, out of spec ammunition; inadequate lubrication; and/or weak recoil spring all come to mind. The striker could be released too early, I suppose, if a botched “trigger job” had been performed on the gun to lighten the trigger pull. I can see how at least some of those causes would be likely with competition guns used with handloads. I do not, however, see how a discharge could occur with the slide so far out of battery that the case was unsupported—assuming, of course, that the gun has the disconnector as it should. Anyone who is using a non-upgraded P320 is a fool, but even then I’m not sure if a grossly OOB discharge would be possible.

To return to the reports, though, what exactly happens when all these OOB discharges occur? What did the case look like in the incident you observed? How far out of battery was the slide when it occurred? Did it occur with a non-upgraded pistol? Had the trigger mechanism of the gun been modified for competition purposes? And, most important, how do we know it was an OOB discharge, and not a case failure (if that’s what happened) due to other causes such as an overcharge?


I wish I had taken pictures of the case. Case was blown out about an 1/8th of an inch from the rim, primer was blown out as well. I didn't even think to ask him if he'd had the voluntary upgrade done on it. If I see him at the next one I will ask.
 
Posts: 1181 | Location: DFW Metromess | Registered: May 20, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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I am just speculating (which is fun, but far from definitive), but I would bet more money on the incident’s being due to a bad round rather than an out of battery discharge. My suspicion is enhanced by the fact that the blowout was limited to a small area which might have been at the top of the feed ramp that doesn’t support the case as much as the rest of the barrel hood.

Based on my understanding of the phenomenon and the few images I found of OOB discharge cases, I would expect more damage to the case, such as pictured below.





In any event, it would be good to know what more you might find out about the matter.

(I’m not, BTW, suggesting that the man deliberately misrepresented what happened. I will point out, though, that without more evidence than a small blown out section of the case it would be hard to know that it was due to an out of battery condition. I assume that if he had been aware that the slide wasn’t fully in battery, he wouldn’t have attempted to fire.)




6.4/93.6

“Most men … can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it … would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions … which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their lives.”
— Leo Tolstoy
 
Posts: 47265 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Was he using reloads? Could have been a squib load. Burning from both ends. Did it blow down or just back or both. They way you describe the shell casing - sounds like ammo from my experience.
 
Posts: 85 | Location: NW of Tampa Fl | Registered: August 05, 2022Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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My #1 suspect here would be a high primer that detonated against the bolt face while the slide was closing. #2 would be a broken or stuck striker or something else stuck on the bolt face indenting the primer. There are other things that can cause such a thing to happen as well, but I would look for the simple answer.


CMSGT USAF (Retired)
Chief of Police (Retired)
 
Posts: 4356 | Location: Florida Panhandle | Registered: September 27, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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1) I heard that some of the early slides they removed a lot of metal when they where playing with the weights of the slides. That was before they had disconnector on the weapon. So those will fire out of battery.

2) If he was shooting at a steel match odds are he is shooting reloaded ammo. The case may have not been sized all the way down and that can keep the slide from closing all the way down. If it left it open enough to fire even if the disconnector is working properly the case now will be unsupported and case can rupture.

3) reloading the cases to may times can weaken them and he may had a partial case head separation. Would have to see the case.

Don't let someone else's problems make you get rid of your weapon. If it only happened once or twice and he is reloading i think i would look at the ammo. If you are shooting factory ammo and you have not had a problem I don't think i would worry much.

A lot of missing info to know for sure.
 
Posts: 117 | Registered: September 04, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
When you fall, I will be there to catch you -With love, the floor
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quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
Anecdotes of the “Gunsmiths have reported …” don’t mean much, and rightfully so because they lack any details and cannot be verified in any reasonable way. If they are so common, why don’t they get reported in places like this forum?

That said, one of the things that was done to P320 pistols when they were “upgraded” following the complaints that they could fire if dropped a certain way was the addition of a disconnector. I don’t know what, if any, mechanism prevented out of battery discharges prior to the change, but if the gun does have a disconnector, it’s easy to demonstrate that it does a good job of doing what it’s supposed to.

The disconnector keeps the striker from being released to fire a cartridge if the slide is not fully forward even a little. In a check I conducted just now, pulling the trigger will not cause a discharge if the slide is pulled to the rear even less than 1/4 inch. When the trigger is disengaged by that small movement of the slide, the barrel hasn’t even started to move down to its unlocked position, and a chambered cartridge is still fully supported by the barrel and breech face. The slide must be much farther out of battery for the case to not be supported as it normally is when the gun is fired. In other words, if the gun has the disconnector, I do not see how an OOB discharge would be possible, or if it occurred due to a small rearward movement of the slide, how anything bad would happen due to an unsupported case.

Slides of pistols like the P320 fail to go into battery for a variety of reasons: bad, out of spec ammunition; inadequate lubrication; and/or weak recoil spring all come to mind. The striker could be released too early, I suppose, if a botched “trigger job” had been performed on the gun to lighten the trigger pull. I can see how at least some of those causes would be likely with competition guns used with handloads. I do not, however, see how a discharge could occur with the slide so far out of battery that the case was unsupported—assuming, of course, that the gun has the disconnector as it should. Anyone who is using a non-upgraded P320 is a fool, but even then I’m not sure if a grossly OOB discharge would be possible.

To return to the reports, though, what exactly happens when all these OOB discharges occur? What did the case look like in the incident you observed? How far out of battery was the slide when it occurred? Did it occur with a non-upgraded pistol? Had the trigger mechanism of the gun been modified for competition purposes? And, most important, how do we know it was an OOB discharge, and not a case failure (if that’s what happened) due to other causes such as an overcharge?


Actual gunsmiths are rare as hell. Someone who replaces parts is more likely.


Richard Scalzo
Epping, NH

http://www.bigeastakitarescue.net
 
Posts: 5803 | Location: Epping, NH | Registered: October 16, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Link was bad can't get it to work.

Robert Burke posted a video on Facebook this morning saying it is a disconnector issue from the factory. He proved some P320's will fire out of battery.
 
Posts: 1181 | Location: DFW Metromess | Registered: May 20, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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Neither Facebook link posted works for me, but I don't have an account. If it's important enough to post anywhere, why not where access is not restricted that way?




6.4/93.6

“Most men … can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it … would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions … which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their lives.”
— Leo Tolstoy
 
Posts: 47265 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Kinda sounds like the whole 320 cannot fire when dropped saga all over again.
It cant and isn't happening and anyone saying so is flat out wrong.
 
Posts: 17981 | Location: South West of Fort Worth, Tx. | Registered: December 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Mustang-PaPa:
Kinda sounds like the whole 320 cannot fire when dropped saga all over again.
It cant and isn't happening and anyone saying so is flat out wrong.


Are you familiar with Robert? He shows it in his video posted on his company Facebook page. His company name is The Sig Armorer.
 
Posts: 1181 | Location: DFW Metromess | Registered: May 20, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yes why yes I do know Of Robert and his great work.
 
Posts: 17981 | Location: South West of Fort Worth, Tx. | Registered: December 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Ox190:

Are you familiar with Robert?


I think you mis-read or mis-interpreted M-PaPa's post.




 
Posts: 10044 | Registered: October 15, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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A link to Robert's video.

https://m.facebook.com/sigarmorer

Sometimes the link works, and Sometimes it doesn't. If you get a something went wrong message, try refresh web page that seems to work.
I'm not a facebook member so maybe that's the issue.
I believe only facebook members can read comments.

.
 
Posts: 1525 | Location: New Mexico | Registered: March 21, 2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I'm not clicking on anything FB related.

Wrong holster or foreign objects in the holster can happen to any model.
It seems to me that from what others have observed, that the OEM barrel is less forgiving of an overcharged or weak cases.

A guy on the other site noticed this with Underwood 90gr +P+ in an OEM barrel and a Barsto barrel.
The cases from the OEM barrel were bulged and the ones from the Barsto barrel were not.

People for whatever reason never log in all the pertinent data when something happens.
It makes it difficult to find the root cause when you don't have all the variables to start with.
 
Posts: 1456 | Location: Portland Oregon | Registered: October 01, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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P320 Out-of-Battery Testing
(Bruce asked me to log in and post...)

https://grayguns.com/news/p320...-of-battery-testing/

Can the SIG Sauer® P320 fire enough out-of-battery to induce case failure with proper ammunition? With the meteoric rise in popularity of the P320 amongst serious, high-volume shooters, we've seen reports of blown cases.

So, here's a series of firing tests and factual analysis to put these reports into proper perspective.

(Please click the link above for all the details and what Bruce did.)

TL;DR
The factory-spec P320 barrel has more than adequate case wall support to contain SAAMI-spec chamber pressures, even when fired so far out of battery that further slide-barrel retraction prevents primer strike. This is far out-of-battery beyond any mechanically plausible scenario for a normal P320 to fire by its design.

My tests should demonstrate this to anyone's reasonable satisfaction. The pistol was designed to function safely with proper spec ammo, and we increase our risk when we shoot remanufactured ammo, reloads, and the cheap stuff.

Blown cases result from out-of-spec, faulty ammunition.

Would more case wall support yield more of a margin for defective ammo? Yes, perhaps, but our goal should be to shoot quality ammo and be particularly careful in making reloads.




Designer and custom pistolsmith at Grayguns Inc. Privileged to be R&D consultant to the world's greatest maker of fine firearms: SIG SAUER

Visit us at http://opspectraining.com/product-cat/videos/ to order yours, and Thank You for making GGI the leader in custom SIG and HK pistolsmithing and high-grade components.

Bruce Gray, President
Grayguns Inc.
Grayguns.com / 888.585.4729
 
Posts: 9526 | Location: Reedsport & Spray, Oregon | Registered: October 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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quote:
Originally posted by Grayguns:
P320 Out-of-Battery Testing

Another amazing effort by Grayguns that I highly recommend to anyone who wants detailed facts rather than rumor.

And I’ll reiterate that it’s astonishing that any commercial enterprise, much less a firearms-related company, would hide their efforts behind a wall that requires logging into a site like Facebook. What’s next: choosing a brand representative who’s acceptable to the Woke crowd because we don’t want to draw our customers from the riffraff?

Added: Perhaps I’ll be corrected by someone like Bruce Gray, but the degree of expansion/bulging a case experiences when a round is fired is strongly affected by the chamber design. I don’t have a Glock, but the couple/few times I’ve tried inserting cases that were fired in Glocks into SIG chambers, they didn’t fit. Likewise it might be that a case fired from a SIG might show more expansion than from a tighter Bar-Sto barrel. Chamber tightness is generally recognized as having an effect on precision, but it can also affect chambering reliability. When I asked an M14 expert about having my M1A rebarreled, he wanted me to have a tight chamber for best precision and accuracy. (When I told him I preferred a military spec chamber, I never heard from him again. I guess that was some sort of insult to someone with his expertise.)




6.4/93.6

“Most men … can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it … would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions … which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their lives.”
— Leo Tolstoy
 
Posts: 47265 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Great post by Grayguns, very detailed and informative. Thank you for taking the time to do the testing and post the results!
 
Posts: 8158 | Location: In the Cornfields | Registered: May 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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