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That rug really tied
the room together.
Picture of bubbatime
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Originally posted by honestlou:
Can you explain the apparent conflict in your statements which I've highlighted? How can a .223 offer less penetration through sheetrock, yet be much more effective against body armor?

I agree with your other points, but I am confused about the effectiveness of the same round against body armor.

Has to do with the sectional density of the projectile, and its fragmenting characteristics after striking something. Also depends on the construction of the bullet chosen. A bonded .223 will penetrate building materials similar to a bonded 9MM. A ballistic tip will begin to break apart and fragment once it hits the first wall.

As to the soft body armor aspect, a 9MM will not penetrate, and will be contained by the vest. A .223 will penetrate and cause penetrating injury. Perhaps not as much as an unobstructed (clean) torso shot, but it will penetrate, dumping 1200 ft lbs of energy into the target.

A .223 double tap to the torso is likely to drop most folks.

Often times a very small man can cast a very large shadow
Posts: 4817 | Location: Floriduh | Registered: October 16, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Picture of sigfreund
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Originally posted by arlen:
I hope that notice is taken concerning the Douglas County, Colorado New Year's Eve fatal shooting of the police officer, that two civilians were also shot. They were in different apartments sleeping in their beds.

The information I can find at the moment indicates that the bystanders (to call them by a generic term) were hit by the criminal subject’s gunfire and that he used a rifle (with no further information about that). He also reportedly fired some 100 shots. So, do you have other information about the weapons and ammunition used? Can you provide a link?

FWIW, I was discussing the above incident with my primary shooting partner yesterday, and my speculation based on what I do know thus far was that there was a group of officers in the apartment, the criminal subject retrieved a gun from another room, and then came out firing a large number of rapid shots. Except for the officer who died, everyone else evidently left the apartment very quickly, and there was apparently no effective return fire. In addition, there was evidently no effective effort made to evacuate the deputy who was killed until after the SWAT team killed the subject.

If I’m correct in my speculation about what happened, and to speculate a little more that the rifle was an AR type or something else chambered for 223/5.56, it’s actually remarkable that only two people in adjacent apartments were hit in the initial fusillade—unless, of course, the bullets from the subject’s rifle didn’t penetrate all that far through building materials.

And thanks, bubbatime, and the others who tried to explain a few things about terminal ballistics; as one member here says, “I can explain it for you, but I can’t understand it for you.”

“Most men … can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it … would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions … which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their lives.”
— Leo Tolstoy
Posts: 38504 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Smarter than the
average bear
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For the record, I'm not disagreeing with the points made about handgun penetration through building materials. And obviously a 9mm will not penetrate soft body armor. And I understand that a light fast bullet is likely to fragment upon impact. My only question, and it is sincerely a question, is whether the same bullet that will easily penetrate soft body armor will fragment on sheetrock.

Obviously a bonded .223 round will have no trouble with soft armor. But it will also have little trouble with sheetrock. Will a bonded .223 penetrate less than a slower heavier 9mm?

And a .223 ballistic tip 55 gr projectile is very likely to fragment severely on most any impact, and I have little trouble believing it will penetrate less than a typical 9mm round through sheetrock. BUT, will it have no trouble with soft armor?
Posts: 2401 | Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana | Registered: June 20, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Sooo would Honady 55 gr FTX Critical Defense, item # 80270, be a good choice for HD?
Posts: 2977 | Location: Middle Earth, Rivendell | Registered: November 13, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigless in
Picture of IndianaBoy
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Originally posted by arlen:
I think that the shotgun is too long to wield at night whenever encountering an intruder. And so is the SBR AR.

The handgun is the way to go. Then choose the ammo wisely.


Choosing an inferior performer for a role because of the boogieman of overpenetration, why not just use pepper spray then?

If you have a firearm to defend your home, it is prudent to have the most capable firearm. Handguns suck, we only carry them because we can carry them out in public and because they are light weight.

By very definition, you don't have to carry a HD gun around much at all, and you don't need to conceal it on your person.

A rifle or a shotgun will stop an intruder with bad intentions far better than any handgun round. They are also easier to shoot well under stress, or by people who are small or weak.

Handguns are the most difficult to shoot well, their ballistic performance is far inferior to that of a rifle, rifles have higher capacity.

Furthermore, your initial premise itself is flawed. Handgun bullets retain energy well and penetrate sheetrock well. Rifle bullets, depending on construction, generally start to break apart upon initial contact with anything substantial at the type of distances that you would see in a HD scenario.

You might as well ride a bicycle everywhere because you are worried about hitting someone with your car.
Posts: 13173 | Location: The Edge of the Ozarks | Registered: December 04, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Donate Blood,
Save a Life!
Picture of StarTraveler
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Great thread. This is been quite informative and it's been a treat to follow your journey. I'm in a somewhat similar boat, having recently picked up the last of the parts for my first AR build. I look forward to completing mine in the next few weeks (I hope) and to seeing pictures of your rifle when it's done.


"Aut viam inveniam aut faciam (I will either find a way or make one)." -- Hannibal Barca
Posts: 1382 | Location: Georgia | Registered: July 19, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I've got mental
blue balls now
Picture of tlbailey1
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Good Afternoon! I just stumbled back onto the forum, but never received an email back from you and my earlier post.

I've added the email listed in your profile to my contact list, but I didn't find anything in the junk/spam folder.

What are you missing and or still need to get fully suited up? Do you have a sling? Optic? Magazines?

And pardon my ignorance, but do you have any pictures of it thus far?

Welcome to Idaho, now take a wolf and go home!
Posts: 6777 | Location: Idaho | Registered: November 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
On the DL
Picture of V-Tail
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Originally posted by tlbailey1:
Good Afternoon! I just stumbled back onto the forum, but never received an email back from you and my earlier post.

I've added the email listed in your profile to my contact list, but I didn't find anything in the junk/spam folder.

What are you missing and or still need to get fully suited up? Do you have a sling? Optic? Magazines?

And pardon my ignorance, but do you have any pictures of it thus far?
Email sent.

A mind is a terrible thing.
Posts: 18751 | Location: Central Florida (near Orlando) | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I fired an M16A1 a grand total of once for qualification while in the Navy. The Navy-issued rifle for a boarding party was (and still is if I'm not mistaken) an M14. They wanted a group of Navy guys to augment the Marine Security Force in case of a big emergency or something at the time at NAS Jacksonville, FL. I can't remember exactly. I like to shoot, so when they asked for a few guys to go shoot the 1911 and the M16, I raised my hand. The big emergency never took place. I sort of became un-interested in ARs after getting out. Then the Assault Weapons Ban of 1994 came along, and I ended up wanting one, and learning how to work on one, since it seemed like the government was getting ready to tell me I couldn't have one. I got a Bushmaster HBAR 20". Since then, I have had several dozen pass through my hands. I have built several, and bought several more complete, and I have narrowed it down to brands and features that I prefer. They are fine rifles for what they are designed for - incapacitating someone inside of 200 yards. The ones I have now make that M16A1 I fired years ago seem like a Brown Bess musket! Somebody said a while back that the Colt 6920 is the modern-day "musket." Everybody ought to own at least one. I happen to agree.
Posts: 1724 | Location: North Carolina | Registered: December 18, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Picture of DEC505
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Originally posted by arlen:
I would not use an AR for home defense if I lived in the city. The round goes through walls and continues to travel. I would stick with a handgun or shotgun so that I would not cause harm to my neighbors.

ARLEN, PLEASE TAKE THIS DISCUSSION TO IT'S ON THREAD. What you are discussing has NOTHING to do with OP'S questions.

Hell has no fury like a liberal
confronted with reality
Posts: 772 | Location: Central Florida | Registered: November 26, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Spiritually Imperfect
Picture of VictimNoMore
posted Hide Post
Great thread, V-Tail. Fun to follow along.
I will throw out for your perusal that Diamondback sells AR uppers, and they are a Florida manufacturer. Yes, they are known for cheap handguns.
I did just what you're doing (assembled the lower myself, then added an already-built upper) for my first AR, using a Diamondback upper that was a Black Friday special deal too good to pass up at the time ($208 shipped, with BCG and charging handle).
It shoots well and has had no hiccups thus far. I learned a lot. Enough to know that I want to build more rifles as time goes on.
Good luck, and thanks for keeping us up to date with your journey!
Posts: 2843 | Location: WV | Registered: January 30, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Picture of JPD217
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Yes, great thread V Tail. I'm in the process right now of putting together a list of parts needed for my first build. Though I've handled and shot many AR's they have always been department owned. I finally decided I needed my own.

"Let us speak courteously, deal fairly, and keep ourselves armed and ready."

President Theodore Roosevelt

"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"
-- George Washington
Posts: 2345 | Location: North Dakota | Registered: August 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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