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I would also like to see some properly conducted, scientific tests. I'd specifically like to see the test done with the striker reset(slide racked) after every drop. Cathy | |||
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| 10mm is The Boom of Doom  |
In addition to reducing trigger mass below the pivot point, it might be possible to increase the mass above the pivot. This would move the center of mass of the trigger to the pivot point and make its inertia neutral to impact forces. The problem of course is that if the trigger is neutral, it would not be balancing out the trigger bar. Thus a nose down drop would be more likely to cause the gun to fire. Balancing all the firing mechanism parts so that taken as a whole they are inertia neutral would seem like a solution. But, while the trigger bar moves in a linear fashion, the trigger itself rotates around a pivot point. Thus impact forces will act upon the parts differently depending on the angle of the drop and the angle the individual part moves. I suspect this is what may have happened in this case. If the gun were dropped barrel straight up, the trigger would be pulling the trigger bar directly opposite the inertia forces acting on the trigger bar. But when dropped an an angle like in the video, the force on the trigger bar (counter balancing the forces on the trigger) is off by 20-30 degrees. On the other hand, the force acting on the trigger will remain roughly parallel to the angle of movement for the trigger around the pivot point. This will increase the chance that the trigger can cause a firing as there is less force counter balancing it. Ideally, you would want the inertia forces to be balanced in all directions. That however is impracticable when parts are moving along different vectors. And what solves a problem at one angle may create it at another. It might be possible to "self" balance each rotating part across its pivot point, and have the linear pieces rotate a lever that pushes another mass in the opposite direction, thus balancing along that vector. In this way everything that moves is either self balancing or is 100% offset. And no matter which direction force is applied, nothing moves, But is it worth it in terms of added complication? At some point, enough is enough. If a gun is completely safe with a five foot drop onto concrete, is it safe with a ten foot drop? Twenty? If the forces are great enough, everything fails. Probably just easier to add a trigger tab safety and call it done. I have not taken physics or engineering in many years however. Just thinking out loud, so to speak. I like hammers. The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People again must learn to work, instead of living on public assistance. ~ Cicero 55 BC The Dhimocrats love America like ticks love a hound. | |||
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| Banned |
You have summarized most of what I have been blathering about - the P320 is full of unbalanced, interconnected levers. Jolt any one of them and that movement is a net decrease in the forces holding other parts and may even be pulling on a component upstream. You can balance each part, or you can put devices in that prevent things from bouncing, or you can replace rotating pieces with parts that move linearly, only, which allows you to isolate their inertial movements from other components. I imagine that SIG created this design because one of the only ways to get a short trigger pull and have safety devices is to use cams or bellcranks that turn a short trigger stoke into a larger movement. The longer take up of a PPQ gives you more mechanical distance to make things happen sequentially. I am kind of fascinated how Steyr went the opposite direction. No FPB, just locked linear components. | |||
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| 10mm is The Boom of Doom |
Should the military/police/civilians carry a weapon that isn't 110% drop safe? Wait, the M4/AR isn't drop safe, AFAIK. A little perspective please. The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People again must learn to work, instead of living on public assistance. ~ Cicero 55 BC The Dhimocrats love America like ticks love a hound. | |||
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| Banned |
If you drop an M4 from shoulder height at any angle, will it drop fire? I had thought the answer was "no" and that it took considerably more distance than that to pop a primer with the full length firing pin or to bounce the sear. | |||
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| 10mm is The Boom of Doom |
I think a lot of it depends on surface that it is impacting and whether it has any initial momentum, prior to being released to the tender mercies of gravity. New springs, old springs, clean, dirty, oiled. No, I don't have any testing stats. And no I'm not saying this isn't an issue that Sig needs to "correct". I'm just saying that any engineered product has "compromises". The current compromise is... well... compromised. I just hope the solution doesn't compromise something else too much. The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People again must learn to work, instead of living on public assistance. ~ Cicero 55 BC The Dhimocrats love America like ticks love a hound. | |||
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| Banned |
I don't disagree. The thing is that the "standard" needs to a be drop height that weapons will all safely handle at any angle, not a formal drop test that they have all happened to pass. AR15s are 60 years old. Drop safety probably came up by now since they started life in an Air Cav war. They seem to be okay. | |||
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| 10mm is The Boom of Doom |
I think there is (or was) a difference between the military and civilian models. Maybe the military version had a floating firing pin. Maybe. Hell, it's been way too long. The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People again must learn to work, instead of living on public assistance. ~ Cicero 55 BC The Dhimocrats love America like ticks love a hound. | |||
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| Banned |
Same firing pin. The bolt carrier is heavier on the military FA ones, but everything functions the same. | |||
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Member |
Which can also be purchased for your civilian rifle. -wolff "In the absence of light, darkness prevails." - Professor Bruttenholm | |||
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| Member |
All I can say is if all this had come out 3 weeks ago I would be holding a M&P 2.0 with night sights instead of a P320. I sure hope this gets resolved quickly. I really like the P320 better and features like the trigger and sights as well as the Sig reputation are the reasons I went with the Sig. | |||
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| 10mm is The Boom of Doom |
Is it Monday yet? The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People again must learn to work, instead of living on public assistance. ~ Cicero 55 BC The Dhimocrats love America like ticks love a hound. | |||
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| Member |
I just bought several more P320's. Not worried in the least. | |||
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| Not as lean, not as mean, Still a Marine  |
I regards to the Military contract, doesn't the M17/M18 have the manual safety? I'd like to see this drop test (from the new angle) with the safety engaged. And as someone mentioned before, the M16 has a floating firing pin, and is capable of "slam firing", where striking the butt stock or muzzle too hard on the deck (hard surface) could cause the firing pin to bounce hard enough to set off the primer of the chambered round. While I have not seen this personally, it was drilled into us during training numerous times, and is the reason for sitting in Amtracks muzzle up, and in helos muzzle down. I shall respect you until you open your mouth, from that point on, you must earn it yourself. | |||
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