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That rug really tied
the room together.
Picture of bubbatime
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For what it’s worth, I have personally handcuffed almost a dozen home invasion suspects. HALF of them were wearing soft body armor. A real eye opener. For this reason, I keep a Colt AR15 next to the bed. ANY .223 ammo from a 16 or 20 inch barrel will perforate soft body armor like butter.

As to what ammo to choose, I personally feel this should be dictated by the environment. If you live in an apartment or urban area, you need to worry about overpenetration more than Farmer Joe. Soft points and ballistic tips slow down the fastest in building materials. If you don’t care about over penetration, than it is hard to bypass the cheap and wonderful bonded Gold Dots from PSA.

And yes, 5.56 M193 from a 20 inch barrel penetrates like a mofo through steel. It actually will go farther or through tougher materials than 62 grain green tip.


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Posts: 4004 | Location: Floriduh | Registered: October 16, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Expert308
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quote:
Originally posted by bubbatime:
And yes, 5.56 M193 from a 20 inch barrel penetrates like a mofo through steel. It actually will go farther or through tougher materials than 62 grain green tip.

What about a 16" (or 14.5") barrel? I that know you lose some velocity with a shorter barrel and that velocity is key to defeating steel armor. At down-the-hallway distances, say in the 40' range, will M193 from a 16" barrel still do the job?
 
Posts: 5076 | Location: Portland, OR | Registered: February 12, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fighting the good fight
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M193 and M855 could potentially defeat some Level III steel armor at close ranges. It will not defeat Level IV steel armor.

There are also some companies offering "Level III+" armor that close-range M193/M855 will not defeat. However, that's not an official NIJ classification.
 
Posts: 19239 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
When you fall, I will be there to catch you -With love, the floor
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Unless a shock plate is installed in a top quality Level III, it will not stop a rifle round.

A 55 grain 223 round is still travelling at about 2700 to 2800 fps.

quote:
There are also some companies offering "Level III+" armor


True but that's getting away from the soft body armor and into the more rigid types. I'm guessing these mopes aren't getting fitted for a $1500 unit and buying the crap off or Ebay or Craigslist.


Richard Scalzo
Epping, NH

http://www.bigeastakitarescue.net
 
Posts: 4501 | Location: Epping, NH | Registered: October 16, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by rscalzo:
Unless a shock plate is installed in a top quality Level III, it will not stop a rifle round.


I think you're confusing Level IIIA (soft handgun armor) with Level III (hard rifle armor).

IIIA won't stop a rifle round without the additional protection of an added hard plate. It's designed solely for handgun rounds, and is the highest level of handgun protection.

But Level III plates, which is what I was discussing in my previous post, are rated to stop most standard rifle ammo up to 7.62 NATO/.30-06, though AP ammo and some of the higher velocity standard ammo will still defeat it.

Level IV plates will stop even hardened steel AP ammo, though (as I discussed on the previous page) they can still be defeated by some of the extremely high-velocity magnum ammo or boutique AP ammo like API or tungsten core.
 
Posts: 19239 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by bubbatime:
For what it’s worth, I have personally handcuffed almost a dozen home invasion suspects. HALF of them were wearing soft body armor. A real eye opener. For this reason, I keep a Colt AR15 next to the bed. ANY .223 ammo from a 16 or 20 inch barrel will perforate soft body armor like butter...it is hard to bypass the cheap and wonderful bonded Gold Dots from PSA.

And yes, 5.56 M193 from a 20 inch barrel penetrates like a mofo through steel. It actually will go farther or through tougher materials than 62 grain green tip.


Looks like the PSA deal for Gold Dots for half price is over. I am thinking of buying Federal soft point/bonded SP or possibly FMJ, which zip along at 3,200 fps. Hope that they will still tumble in the body, but get stopped by interior walls.

http://palmettostatearmory.com...an-eagle-rebate.html


-c1steve
 
Posts: 1898 | Location: West coast | Registered: March 31, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Federal Fusion bonded soft points are just as good as Gold Dot, if you can find a deal on those.

(They're made with the same bullet design as Gold Dots. Federal and Speer are owned by the same company.)
 
Posts: 19239 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by RogueJSK:


But no .223 will defeat Level IV steel/ceramic hard body armor, which is designed to protect against full-power armor-piercing rifle rounds.


Rogue can you throw us a link to the level IV steel plate you are referencing?
 
Posts: 3716 | Location: Where ever Uncle Sam Sends Me | Registered: March 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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To the OP,
If you want to understand armor, look up Dr Gary Robert's comments on the NIJ standard and his work on the DEA and FBI standards on body armor. Check out the Armor 101 write up on the AT armor website and check out Hesco's test data and Tencate international's test data as well. There is a reason why armor manufactures point out that they only expect their armor to defeat rounds they have been tested against and only at the velocities they have been tested at. Some of the comments on armor in this thread are factual and some are not, Other comments are trivia that doesn't apply to you. For example You mentioned that you are using a 14.5" or 16" barrel which means you might not see a muzzle velocity in the 3100-3200 fps range with M193 so don't expect to defeat level III steel plates. Also, if you have reason to believe that your enemy is wearing real USGI SAPI (Small Arms Protective Inserts) made to the SAPI standard then that's a whole different ball of wax.

Having worked in an environment where the enemy might actually be wearing hard plates (ones the US government may have given them), I would say the best advice in this entire thread that is germane to you is when Rogue said:

"Use standard defensive ammo. Aim for center mass. Switch to the pelvis or head if you're not getting effective hits."

I would recommend going for the head first if your COM hits don't work. Having seen pelvis hits down range, they are not a guarantied quick kill and breaking the pelvis is not as easy as some make it out to be. Yes, you have the mesenteric artery and vein down their, but it will take some time for the perp to bleed out, and they may still be able to shoot at you while they do it. Head hit's aren't a guaranteed quick stop either. However, having treated three separate patients (1 CONUS, 2OCONUS) with GSWs to the head, that's where I would put my bullets. I would additionally point out that LE, MIL and COL Cooper were using two to the body, One to the head, long before armor became as common as it is now.

Also, remember that you have a good size magazine and that the fights not over until the enemy ceases to be hostile. If it takes you half a magazine to stop the threat, so be it.

If you get into a gun fight in your house, you may or may not be able to tell if your opponent is wearing armor and you will probably not be able to identify the type of armor anyway. Your first clue might be that your shots are not having the desired results. Even then, are you going to be able tell if it's armor, drugs or you missing the vital areas that's causing the failure? Maybe, Maybe not, but you will know that your rounds failed to have the desired effect and then it's time for the "Failure Drill".

This message has been edited. Last edited by: CD228,
 
Posts: 3716 | Location: Where ever Uncle Sam Sends Me | Registered: March 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Okay, I will buy some more Gold Dots, and possibly some ammo with TSX bullets. My ability to hit someone in the head while they are running is probably poor, but I can always switch to the pelvis and thighs if needed.

I live in a nice neighborhood, but have been targeted before and expect to be targeted again. It is just a good vs evil thing, and I plan on being prepared with training, practice, and good equipment.


-c1steve
 
Posts: 1898 | Location: West coast | Registered: March 31, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by thunderson:
.223 will penetrate level III steel at close range. m855 will not. It's all about velocity. .223 approaching or exceeding 3200fps will do the job.


With most people using 16" AR's, don't count on it.
 
Posts: 1493 | Registered: September 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by c1steve:
Okay, I will buy some more Gold Dots, and possibly some ammo with TSX bullets. My ability to hit someone in the head while they are running is probably poor, but I can always switch to the pelvis and thighs if needed.

I live in a nice neighborhood, but have been targeted before and expect to be targeted again. It is just a good vs evil thing, and I plan on being prepared with training, practice, and good equipment.


If you are that high risk, start hardening your living space. Also, have a drill plan/program, not just shooting but what you are going to do and where you are going to do it.
 
Posts: 3716 | Location: Where ever Uncle Sam Sends Me | Registered: March 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
If you are that high risk, start hardening your living space. Also, have a drill plan/program, not just shooting but what you are going to do and where you are going to do it.


Thanks for the recommendations. I have been working on the hardening, but need to work on the action part.


-c1steve
 
Posts: 1898 | Location: West coast | Registered: March 31, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Festina Lente
Picture of feersum dreadnaught
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quote:
Originally posted by CD228:
quote:
Originally posted by RogueJSK:


But no .223 will defeat Level IV steel/ceramic hard body armor, which is designed to protect against full-power armor-piercing rifle rounds.


Rogue can you throw us a link to the level IV steel plate you are referencing?


http://bulletproofme.com/RP-Level-4-Stand-Alone.html



NRA Life Member - "Fear God and Dreadnaught"
 
Posts: 5858 | Location: in the red zone of the blue state, CT | Registered: October 15, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by feersum dreadnaught:
quote:
Originally posted by CD228:
quote:
Originally posted by RogueJSK:


But no .223 will defeat Level IV steel/ceramic hard body armor, which is designed to protect against full-power armor-piercing rifle rounds.


Rogue can you throw us a link to the level IV steel plate you are referencing?


http://bulletproofme.com/RP-Level-4-Stand-Alone.html

According to the top of that page those are ceramic, not steel. Did I miss a steel level 4 plate on that page?
 
Posts: 3716 | Location: Where ever Uncle Sam Sends Me | Registered: March 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofQ6i9I1IYY

Mozambique and pelvis shot are to concepts that work despite use of body armor.
 
Posts: 425 | Location: DFW | Registered: May 03, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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