No, I don't think a hospital or health care facility should be forced to accommodate if they won't do it on religious grounds.

quote:

If you don't have the right to kill yourself, you're not actually a free person.

Arc.

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76;
If we make regular old suicide illegal,...

No need to make it so, it has been for...well...pretty much forever.

That was supposed to be "legal." As in, if suicide was legal, you could sue someone for stopping you, etc. What a mess that would be. Of course plain suicide is illegal currently.

You're not actually a free person unless you have the right to kill yourself.... but nevertheless, you think killing yourself should be illegal?

So... you think being a free person should be illegal?

Chellim please read a thread through. It was supposed to say legal. Quoted here.

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:
Why the compassion of ending suffering is offered to our beloved family pets, but not our blood, that's a real puzzler.

Not a "puzzler" at all. Pets are just that. Pets. Animals. No matter how much we love them, no matter how much we'd like to anthropomorphize them, they are still that...not human beings.

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76;
If we make regular old suicide illegal,...

No need to make it so, it has been for...well...pretty much forever.

That was supposed to be "legal." As in, if suicide was legal, you could sue someone for stopping you, etc. What a mess that would be. Of course plain suicide is illegal currently.

So, you're not being compassionate to another living thing when you end the life of your family pet or other animal because it is in pain? You're just dispatching something not human? How high minded.

Of course with all govt involvement the process and procedures will be ridiculous. Similar to the "cocktail" given for the death penalty, we all know there are simpler and better ways to do the deed.

You cant just walk into your primary care doctors office and tell him to take you out. You will have to go to certain doctors who are willing to medically assist you in achieving your wishes in a controlled environment.

As for the comment of jumping off a bridge or eating a shotgun. You dont think those options involving forcing others to participate in your death. Should a group of 12 yr olds walking in the woods be forced to discovered your rotting dead body?? Should your wife or kids be forced to clean your brain matter off the ceiling?? Why in the world would you not want medical professionals willing to assist you in the most human method possible.

Having DNR and DNI orders in addition to a Living Will helps some in these sorts of matters. It turns out these documents were scanned into my hospital records but were not immediately accessible. I am now making sure that it is on the Front Page so to speak. With the advent of electronic records it seems the hospital system only scanned the last three years.

quote:

Originally posted by gpbst3:
As for the comment of jumping off a bridge or eating a shotgun. You dont think those options involving forcing others to participate in your death. Should a group of 12 yr olds walking in the woods be forced to discovered your rotting dead body?? Should your wife or kids be forced to clean your brain matter off the ceiling?? Why in the world would you not want medical professionals willing to assist you in the most human method possible.

This is an excellent point, actually.

Much of the opposition to suicide is religious/moral, but we can all agree that limiting the impact on others would be the best way. Assisted suicide actually involves the family, while improvised suicide, does not.

All in all, my goal would be the de stigmatization of suicide. This is different from the affirmation of it. Killing yourself is still never the best choice, but the heavy social penalties for doing it, much less talking about it, are what prevent us from reaching people who could be prevented from killing themselves.

In the course of the thread, some may have gotten the impression that I'm "in favor" of suicide. No, I'm not. But it has been present in my life enough to understand its reality, and be practical about the best ways to minimize the likelihood that it occurs.

I am also, at heart, a libertarian, and so yes I do believe in maximum individual freedom. I just don't go as far as the "sovereign citizen" kooks and a lot of other nonsense.

quote:

That was supposed to be "legal." As in, if suicide was legal, you could sue someone for stopping you, etc. What a mess that would be. Of course plain suicide is illegal currently.

Huh... I still have no idea what you mean.

if suicide was legal, you could sue someone for stopping you, etc. What a mess that would be. Of course plain suicide is illegal currently.

quote:

Originally posted by gpbst3:

You cant just walk into your primary care doctors office and tell him to take you out. You will have to go to certain doctors who are willing to medically assist you in achieving your wishes in a controlled environment.

As for the comment of jumping off a bridge or eating a shotgun. You dont think those options involving forcing others to participate in your death. Should a group of 12 yr olds walking in the woods be forced to discovered your rotting dead body?? Should your wife or kids be forced to clean your brain matter off the ceiling?? Why in the world would you not want medical professionals willing to assist you in the most human method possible.

I agree, legalizing assisted suicide would make to easier to do it in a controlled environment and minimize the chance of accidentally endangering or impacting others. It would also increase the chances of doing it correctly and with minimal suffering.

Oregon passed its Death with Dignity act in 1997 and it has offered an option to those people who are facing death within 6 months. The process to obtain the medications is not easy and the majority of people who obtain the medication choose not to use it. I have attached a link to the 2017 annual report of the program for those who are interested.

https://www.oregon.gov/oha/ph/...documents/year20.pdf

While not in the report, it is interesting to note that the very few failures or problems with the medication stem from the unavailability of the medication of choice. The manufacturer of this medication refuses to sell it in the US because it was being used to carry out death sentences in prisons. Not being able to obtain the medication of choice led to a few cases where the alternate medication did not work as well.

I am neutral on this issue at this point but having witnessed a friend pass away from ALS two years ago has made me more open to the concept if the pain and suffering from a terminal disease is significant.

Thank you for posting. The PDF was interesting, and informative.

Before my wife retired as a nurse, she witnessed an 87 year old woman with cancer (who was barely coherent) go into cardiac arrest. The family insisted that the attending physician revive the woman. He said "Are you sure?" then did as instructed. Later that night it happened again. To his credit (in my opinion) the new attending physician on duty refused to do it. I know this thread is about assisted suicide, not this situation. But my point is that sometimes family members don't have the best interests of the patient in mind.

quote:

Originally posted by Marc1911:
Oregon passed its Death with Dignity act in 1997 and it has offered an option to those people who are facing death within 6 months. The process to obtain the medications is not easy and the majority of people who obtain the medication choose not to use it. I have attached a link to the 2017 annual report of the program for those who are interested.

https://www.oregon.gov/oha/ph/...documents/year20.pdf

While not in the report, it is interesting to note that the very few failures or problems with the medication stem from the unavailability of the medication of choice. The manufacturer of this medication refuses to sell it in the US because it was being used to carry out death sentences in prisons. Not being able to obtain the medication of choice led to a few cases where the alternate medication did not work as well.

I am neutral on this issue at this point but having witnessed a friend pass away from ALS two years ago has made me more open to the concept if the pain and suffering from a terminal disease is significant.

What is "the medication".

I didn't see it named in skimming your posted PDF other than a referral to "the medication".

Yeah. I wondered that too. There was an implication that it was the same as used for lethal injection in some states. Bet you have an idea. Found it for you:

Currently in Oregon, secobarbital is the medication most commonly prescribed for physician-assisted suicide, followed by pentobarbital.[3] The lethal dose prescribed is typically 9 g of secobarbital in capsules or 10 g of pentobarbital liquid, to be consumed at one time.[4–6] The contents of the secobarbital capsules or the pentobarbital liquid should be mixed with a sweet substance such as juice to mask the bitter taste. Until the time of use, the medication must be stored out of reach of children and kept away from others to prevent unintentional overdose or abuse.

The pharmacist or physician should instruct patients to take the lethal dose on an empty stomach to increase the rate of absorption.[7] The typical dose of pentobarbital as an oral hypnotic for adults is 100–200 mg at bedtime, and that of secobarbital is 100 mg orally at bedtime. Patients receiving the lethal dose of secobarbital or pentobarbital should be instructed to take an antiemetic (e.g., metoclopramide) about one hour before ingesting the barbiturate to prevent nausea and vomiting.[6] Cases of vomiting after taking an antiemetic have been reported; in the event of vomiting after medication ingestion, patients should be instructed to have a family member contact the attending physician to determine the course of action.[2] Also, patients should be instructed that if they decide not to end their life after ingesting the medication, they must contact emergency medical services to begin lifesaving measures.[2]

Patients need to be informed of appropriate disposal methods in case the medication is not taken; the Food and Drug Administration provides guidance on that issue.[8] Secobarbital and pentobarbital are not among the medications recommended for disposal by flushing, and they should be placed in the household trash after mixing with an unpalatable substance such as coffee grounds. Unused medications also can be brought to a drug "take-back" program involving law enforcement personnel. Patients are not permitted to return controlled-substance medications to a pharmacy.[9]

Proper reporting by pharmacists to the Oregon Department of Human Services is mandated by the DWDA so the agency can collect information and publish an annual statistical report.[10] Pharmacists are required to complete and submit, within 10 calendar days of dispensing a lethal medication dose, a pharmacy dispensing record form with the following information: the patient's name and date of birth; the prescribing physician's name and phone number; the pharmacist's name, address, and phone number; the medication and quantity dispensed; and the dates the prescription was written and dispensed.

Since the Oregon DWDA took effect in 1997, 460 patients have died by self-administration of a lethal dose of a prescription medication.[11] In 2009, 95 prescriptions were written for lethal medications, resulting in 59 deaths (in the remaining cases, the medication was not ingested). About 80% of the patients had malignant cancer, and the most commonly ingested lethal medication was secobarbital (85% of cases). About 78% of the patients were 55–84 years of age. The time from ingestion to death ranged from two minutes to 4.5 days.[3,11]

The state of Washington passed a DWDA that mirrors Oregon's statute and became effective in March 2009. Participating pharmacists in Washington must submit the pharmacy dispensing record within 30 days of dispensing to the registrar of the state's Center for Health Statistics.[12] The Washington State Department of Health issued its first report in March 2010. According to the report, a lethal dose of medication, usually secobarbital (89% of cases), was dispensed to 63 patients by 29 different pharmacists.[13] Of those 63 patients, 36 individuals died as a result of ingesting the medication, 7 died without ingestion, and data are missing for 4 individuals; data collection for the remaining 16 individuals is pending. The most common reported illnesses were cancer (79%), respiratory disease or other illnesses (12%), and amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (9%). The required dispensing record form was submitted to the Department of Health for all 63 patients. The reported times from medication ingestion to death ranged from nine minutes to 28 hours.

Pharmacists and physicians cannot be held liable for participating in physician-assisted suicide in Oregon and Washington if they adhere to the legal requirements.[1,12] In December 2008, the Montana supreme court ruled that physician-assisted suicide is legal after a patient with terminal cancer sued the state in the case of Baxter v. Montana,[14,15] but legal requirements such as reporting regulations have not been established. A bill to ban the practice in Montana was introduced in the state legislative session on January 6, 2011, and a hearing scheduled for late January. Montana still has not established rules and regulations.

I’m in the camp of Arc...I think you should be able to punch your own ticket.

I also implore you to think of the persons who will discovery your corpse....do it neatly, leave a note and explanations so tha the living don’t feel guilty about something they feel they created, etc

As a cop I’ve seen plenty of dead people in every possible situation, when I was in the CG I found drowned people and plane wrecks, fire...it’s nevr good.

My granddads best friend found out he had lung cancer and he had seen his momma die of it, MM went to the cemetery and popped himself with a shotgun, my Pop-pop was the one to find him, only complained about finding MM.

His second wife got cancer a second time and I’m convinced her old country doctor helped hre out with her pain meds to the point that she went easily, as she wished.

Don’t know how the do it in Denmark and the like but I think it should be allowed here,.

If you've got a terminal illness and you're going to die anyway, then I can get with that.

But what about the parent who leaves behind kids that can't take care of themselves? A husband and earner who leaves his wife with a load of debt and no income? A person who escapes their debts and leaves others carrying that burden? How do you square it with life insurance?

Thank you zsmichael, I wasn't able to find that information.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeinNC:
His second wife got cancer a second time and I’m convinced her old country doctor helped hre out with her pain meds to the point that she went easily, as she wished.

.

My daughter is currently a nurse at an assisted living facility. She says this happens far more frequently than many realize.

quote:

Originally posted by bobtheelf:
But what about the parent who leaves behind kids that can't take care of themselves? A husband and earner who leaves his wife with a load of debt and no income? A person who escapes their debts and leaves others carrying that burden? How do you square it with life insurance?

What about what?

Are you just talking generally about someone taking their own life? It doesn't sound related to medically assisted suicide.

We can "what if" all day about the circumstances under which someone kills themselves, and who they leave behind. What we can't do is be inside that persons head, and know the whole story about what brought them to the place where they believe killing themselves is an option. If we're about to go down the "how could someone do that to their wife/kids/family road, the answer is you don't get an answer, because you can't understand why someone would do such a thing. The answer won't be rational, without the ability to feel what they felt.

The typical "people who commit suicide are selfish cowards" is a pile of shit that just stops people with suicidal thoughts and feelings from confiding in others and seeking help. Judging the amount of pain and the mental place someone has to be in to take their own life as simple cowardice or selfishness, is just making a simple solution so you can write someone off. The reality is a lot more complex. Self preservation is a built in instinct we all have. Healthy people don't kill themselves, and if someone has never been that low, good for them.

As far as life insurance and suicide, most if not all policies have an amount of time after the policy is written where suicide would void it, but I believe most would actually return premiums or pay out if a number of years had past, even in the event of suicide. Read your policies and know what the exclusions are, kids.

I say have at it, it's your life, end it if you see fit.

Excluding religion, what is the argument against someone choosing to end their life if they are already terminally ill or in incurable pain? I can't think of any?

Forcing those over a certain age to be euthanized in order to make Cheerios out of them, yeah that's wrong. Forcing a medical care provider to participate, yeah that's wrong. Selling suicide kits online or in a vending machine, yeah that's probably wrong too.

Being of strong mind and having the capability to make the choice, no one should have to die in excruciating pain or with major loss of body functions. Nor shall he/she be forced to squander their life long savings that was planned for children and grandchildren on end of life care that provides no chance for recovery or only extends their life weeks or months while leaving them in pain.

I sure as hell don't want to spend my last three months in a hospital bed shitting myself, while in pain and relying on some nurse to change the TV station or feed me. I certainly don't want to have my inheritance wasted on unnecessary medical care, just to make me feel slightly less in pain or buy me two more weeks.

So what's so bad about it?