quote:

Originally posted by mod29:

quote:

Originally posted by Sigfan Roy:
...There is a concept called strength of an idea, where a pilot who has lost their Situational Awareness (SA) believes that they have already accomplished a task and doesn't go back to consider the possibility that they hadn't already done that task. It happens often and needs to be combated all the time in aviation.

...Although they had low SA, at least they were probably trying the entire time to figure out why their fuel flow was so high. Since they were convinced that the gear was up because they had probably accomplished the After T/O checklist, they didn't consider that as a possibility, despite several indications that they should have picked up on.

Great post, Sigfan Roy.

I agree especially about the crash around the burnt light bulb considering the catastrophic result. Wow.

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:
Wait.

My car starts beeping if I've been driving a few yards with the emergency brake on.

It also has an idiot light that blinks when I'm driving and the back door is open.

Both things I've done. It took another driver in the parking lot to stop me to let me know my back door was open.

But an airline doesn't have an alarm if you've been flying for a while and your retractable landing gear is still down???

Not comparable at all.

A ATP pilot probably has several hundred times more training and experience flying than someone has driving. A pro pilot has been raising and lowering landing gear since shortly after learning to fly. A pilot uses a check list for every operation.

In every retractable gear airplane I have been in, there is a prominent gear down light and handle to raise and lower the gear. The points at which gear should be raised if down and lowered if up vary somewhat which is why it ought not be automated.

Some people who have qualified as pilots ought not be.

I don't think he's advocating for automation here. Just a chime and a lighted indication if the landing gear is still down after you reach a certain airspeed. Just like you get a chime in your car if you don't buckle your seatbelt after a certain mph.

They are lucky they didn't tear tear off the gear due to exceeding gear down speed.

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:
Wait.

My car starts beeping if I've been driving a few yards with the emergency brake on.

It also has an idiot light that blinks when I'm driving and the back door is open.

Both things I've done. It took another driver in the parking lot to stop me to let me know my back door was open.

But an airline doesn't have an alarm if you've been flying for a while and your retractable landing gear is still down???

Not comparable at all.

A ATP pilot probably has several hundred times more training and experience flying than someone has driving. A pro pilot has been raising and lowering landing gear since shortly after learning to fly. A pilot uses a check list for every operation.

In every retractable gear airplane I have been in, there is a prominent gear down light and handle to raise and lower the gear. The points at which gear should be raised if down and lowered if up vary somewhat which is why it ought not be automated.

Some people who have qualified as pilots ought not be.

I don't think he's advocating for automation here. Just a chime and a lighted indication if the landing gear is still down after you reach a certain airspeed. Just like you get a chime in your car if you don't buckle your seatbelt after a certain mph.

I don't know about the chime, but there are lights showing down and locked, in transit, etc.

The chime might be problematic because in some regimes in flight you want the gear down.

quote:

Originally posted by heavyd:
They are lucky they didn't tear tear off the gear due to exceeding gear down speed.

Highly unlikely, as the gear itself is one of the strongest components on the airplane. Gear speed limits are mostly for the doors, not the actual gear struts and wheels, at least on transport aircraft. Even if they did tear the doors off it shouldn't affect the planes ability to land safely unless it took out hydraulic lines or something. On the 737 which is what I fly, the max gear down speed is 320 knots vs a redline speed of 350, so it's pretty fast.

I can't speak to the Airbus, but on the 737 we don't have the gear on any after takeoff or climb checklists. I guess Boeing figures if you're smart enough to be flying a 737 you probably shouldn't be forgetting something as basic as raising the gear. And if somehow you manage that feat there are more than enough visual, aural, and performance clues to remind you. Unless of course you're Indian, and a woman...

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:
Wait.

My car starts beeping if I've been driving a few yards with the emergency brake on.

It also has an idiot light that blinks when I'm driving and the back door is open.

Both things I've done. It took another driver in the parking lot to stop me to let me know my back door was open.

But an airline doesn't have an alarm if you've been flying for a while and your retractable landing gear is still down???

Not comparable at all.

A ATP pilot probably has several hundred times more training and experience flying than someone has driving. A pro pilot has been raising and lowering landing gear since shortly after learning to fly. A pilot uses a check list for every operation.

In every retractable gear airplane I have been in, there is a prominent gear down light and handle to raise and lower the gear. The points at which gear should be raised if down and lowered if up vary somewhat which is why it ought not be automated.

Some people who have qualified as pilots ought not be.

I don't think he's advocating for automation here. Just a chime and a lighted indication if the landing gear is still down after you reach a certain airspeed. Just like you get a chime in your car if you don't buckle your seatbelt after a certain mph.

I think they already have that. It would be that roaring noise from the drag. ;-)

quote:

Originally posted by heavyd:
They are lucky they didn't tear tear off the gear due to exceeding gear down speed.

As I mentioned in my post above, its almost impossible to overspeed the gear when its down and locked. Had they tried to raise it above 220 knots they might have damaged the gear doors. The gear itself would have been fine. They could take out some hydraulic lines with a door failure, which could lead to other issues with the brakes or flight controls (maybe) but there was no real risk to the landing gear itself as long as they left it down and didn't try to retract it above the max retract speed (220 knots). The aircraft was in no danger, it was just very limited in its capabilities due to the extra drag of having the gear down. Thats why they invented retractable gear in the first place.

quote:

Originally posted by Flyboyrv6:
Yet another example of incompetent foreign airline pilots who think an airplane is just another video game and don't really know how to fly.

Exactly.

I think the gender aspect has NOTHING to do with this. I'd really be hesitant to fly on any foreign airline. Especially south koreans. Some of the worst pilots I've seen come from that airline. I've heard horror stories about the chinese airlines, but I've no first hand experience. Perhaps it is similar to the korean airlines (I'm not sure), I was told that they basically get chosen for the career and then sent to learn how to fly. Speak with any instructor or fly near any of these flight schools where they get sent to learn, and you'll experience it for yourself. My two closest calls in aviation were both korean flight students nearly killing me and my passengers due to their incompetence.

It should be noted that it is WAY more common for pilots to forget to put the gear DOWN when landing than to forget to raise it on takeoff, so most of the warnings are focused on that scenario. I doubt you will see warnings developed for the gear left down because it is not an emergency nor does it place the aircraft in jeopardy. You simply won't be able to climb or accelerate normally with the gear down. Eventually you will realize that your fuel burn is about twice the normal rate, as this crew did. How they didn't figure it out sooner is a head scratcher, because it is really loud when you leave the gear down, but it isn't like the gear will fall off or the jet will fall out of the sky.

At no time was the aircraft in danger because the gear was down. Landing with the gear up is much more dangerous and more likely to occur, thus the various warning systems designed to prevent it. EGPWS (bitching Betty) will tell you "too low gear" if you pull the power with the flaps extended with the gear up but it won't tell you to raise the gear ever. Just not something anybody ever thought would be an issue and not dangerous if you forget to raise it.

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:
Wait.

My car starts beeping if I've been driving a few yards with the emergency brake on.

It also has an idiot light that blinks when I'm driving and the back door is open.

Both things I've done. It took another driver in the parking lot to stop me to let me know my back door was open.

But an airline doesn't have an alarm if you've been flying for a while and your retractable landing gear is still down???

Not comparable at all.

A ATP pilot probably has several hundred times more training and experience flying than someone has driving. A pro pilot has been raising and lowering landing gear since shortly after learning to fly. A pilot uses a check list for every operation.

In every retractable gear airplane I have been in, there is a prominent gear down light and handle to raise and lower the gear. The points at which gear should be raised if down and lowered if up vary somewhat which is why it ought not be automated.

Some people who have qualified as pilots ought not be.

I don't think he's advocating for automation here. Just a chime and a lighted indication if the landing gear is still down after you reach a certain airspeed. Just like you get a chime in your car if you don't buckle your seatbelt after a certain mph.

They had 3 green lights staring them in the face the entire flight. They managed to block that out. They would just as easily block out a chime (that would have to be silenced during take off until above 1000 feet anyway) that told them the gear was still down. Theres a lot going on in a modern jet aircraft in today's busy ATC environment, things get missed on occasion. The checklist should have covered the oversight but somehow they missed it. Good chance they would have missed another aural warning or chime as well. Maybe not. But this is a very rare scenario, never heard of somebody going on a 90 minute flight with the gear down and not knowing it. The noise alone would probably made hearing a chime (if there was one invented) difficult.

Hard to believe they had much flight time in that type if sound & sluggishness didn't speak out to them.

Well if they fly like they drive, I can see this happening.

quote:

I agree especially about the crash around the burnt light bulb considering the catastrophic result. Wow.

This could also be an example of the "glass cockpit syndrome." This occurs when the technology gives too much information and the crew becomes confused. A variation happens when a crew fees the captain and won't speak up even when danger is imminent.


http://articles.latimes.com/19...information-overload

quote:

I'm going out on a limb here because I realize that folks want to bash the pilots for this and its definitely appropriate to do so in this case. It is not, however, because it was 2 women in the cockpit. 3 guys, including a 55 year old, very senior and experienced Captain with almost 30,000 flight hours, a 39 year old FO and a 51 year old FE (Flight Engineer) managed to fly a perfectly good, brand new Eastern L-1011 into the Florida everglades while trouble shooting a burned out light bulb in the landing gear down indicator. 101 people died out of 163 on board. Countless other accidents have occurred with all male, very experienced crews flying the jet.

I remember that. 1972 Eastern Air Lines Flight 401.

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
"OHNO! NUTGUDE! NUTGUDE!!!

Aural caution: "DO THE NEEDFUL!!!"

quote:

Originally posted by Woodman:...and de-existed...

'NEW VERB WARNING NEW VERB WARNING NE.....'

tac

quote:

Originally posted by Icabod:

quote:

I agree especially about the crash around the burnt light bulb considering the catastrophic result. Wow.

This could also be an example of the "glass cockpit syndrome." This occurs when the technology gives too much information and the crew becomes confused. A variation happens when a crew fees the captain and won't speak up even when danger is imminent.


http://articles.latimes.com/19...information-overload

The first timer [as a visitor to Airbus Industrie, I hasten to add] that I sat in a all-lit-up brand-new 'glass cockpit' passenger plane, I felt just like a dog must feel watching TV.

tac