MLB drops hammer on Astros, owner fires manage & GM
Quote possibly the biggest punitive action take by MLB since Pete Rose was suspended. Will be interesting to see what or, if, Alex Cora gets handed some penalty.
Major League Baseball announced punishment for the Houston Astros, including one-year suspensions for GM Jeff Luhnow and manager AJ Hinch, loss of draft picks in 2020 and 2021, and a $5 million fine, after an MLB investigation found the team used technology to cheat during its World Series-winning 2017 season. Luhnow and Hinch were subsequently fired by Astros owner Jim Crane.
ESPN.com's Bradford Doolittle, Jeff Passan and David Schoenfield break down the penalties, what they mean for the Astros and what impact Monday's punishment could have across the sport.
Just how harsh is this punishment compared with what was expected?
There was an awfully large range in the speculation, but unless you felt Jeff Luhnow and/or AJ Hinch might be subject to a permanent ban, the penalties are borderline shocking. That's true even when you factor in that part of Rob Manfred's thinking was related to the Brandon Taubman incident. A suspension of several weeks seemed likely, but a full year for the two most important members of a team's baseball operations group is stunning, almost unprecedented. (Leo Durocher, when he was a manager, was suspended for a year, but there was a gambling element to his situation.) You had to expect a loss of draft picks, but the top two picks for two years is stunning. The $5 million fine seems inconsequential by comparison to those penalties. It's clear Rob Manfred wanted to send a clear message to teams and fans alike. He has certainly done so. For that matter, so did Astros owner Jim Crane, who quickly moved to terminate Hinch and Luhnow. -- Doolittle
I don't think it's shocking it all. To steal from the NCAA, you can call it a loss of institutional control, and Luhnow, Hinch and the organization had to pay a severe penalty -- and Manfred certainly handed one down. For those arguing that using technology to steal signs is going on throughout the sport and that the Astros don't deserve to be punished for what everyone else also might be doing, I disagree. The Astros got caught and got caught doing it in a year they won the World Series. This is exactly how you tell an entire sport to knock it off. You go after the big boys and send a strong message that this will not be tolerated. It's time for baseball to return to a competition between players -- not a competition between technology. -- Schoenfield
....
January 13, 2020, 04:39 PM
soflaac
I've always been a casual fan of baseball, but I thought sign stealing was a bit of an arcane pursuit that most teams engaged in. Though taking it to the level the Astros did, the Series win should be stripped.
Seems to be the predictable upper echelon of the sport since they've been pretending that steroid abuse isn't ongoing and blatant for so long.
<>< America, Land of the Free - because of the Brave
January 13, 2020, 04:40 PM
PowerSurge
quote:
Originally posted by soflaac: I've always been a casual fan of baseball, but I thought sign stealing was a bit of an arcane pursuit that most teams engaged in. Though taking it to the level the Astros did, the Series win should be stripped.
I agree. They cheated and were caught. They should’ve had their title taken away. I’m done with MLB after this.
——————————————— The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Psalm 14:1
January 13, 2020, 04:43 PM
fpuhan
quote:
Originally posted by PowerSurge:
quote:
Originally posted by soflaac: I've always been a casual fan of baseball, but I thought sign stealing was a bit of an arcane pursuit that most teams engaged in. Though taking it to the level the Astros did, the Series win should be stripped.
I agree. They cheated and were caught. They should’ve had their title taken away. I’m done with MLB after this.
??? MLB comes down hard on a team for cheating, the owner fires those responsible, and you're done with MLB? I don't get it.
The New England Patriots were caught doing the same thing, and I don't see Belichick getting fired, or Kraft getting his panties in a wad.
Seems to me MLB did what the NFL ought to.
You can't truly call yourself "peaceful" unless you are capable of great violence. If you're not capable of great violence, you're not peaceful, you're harmless.
NRA Benefactor/Patriot Member
January 13, 2020, 04:47 PM
soflaac
quote:
Originally posted by fpuhan:
??? MLB comes down hard on a team for cheating, the owner fires those responsible, and you're done with MLB? I don't get it.
The New England Patriots were caught doing the same thing, and I don't see Belichick getting fired, or Kraft getting his panties in a wad.
Seems to me MLB did what the NFL ought to.
I was quite surprised that the Pats got off as easily as they did, though they did get slapped a bit. I get being competitive, but the obsession to win to that degree, may as well allow anything.
Plenty of folks will be saying that Belichick will hire them while they serve their suspension from MLB.
<>< America, Land of the Free - because of the Brave
January 13, 2020, 04:48 PM
jhe888
quote:
Originally posted by fpuhan:
??? MLB comes down hard on a team for cheating, the owner fires those responsible, and you're done with MLB? I don't get it.
Not only does he want them drawn and quartered, he wants their bodies displayed in the public square.
These penalties are draconian, and I think they are excessive, so I think that believing that they should be even more severe is inexplicable.
The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything.
January 13, 2020, 04:50 PM
PowerSurge
quote:
Originally posted by jhe888:
quote:
Originally posted by fpuhan:
??? MLB comes down hard on a team for cheating, the owner fires those responsible, and you're done with MLB? I don't get it.
Not only does he want them drawn and quartered, he wants their bodies displayed in the public square.
These penalties are draconian, and I think they are excessive, so I think that believing that they should be even more severe is inexplicable.
You’re a great bloviator, jhe, I’ll give you that.
——————————————— The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Psalm 14:1
The scheme itself, Manfred wrote, began in 2017 and evolved throughout the course of the season. After initially using video-replay personnel to decode the opposing catcher's signs via a center-field camera and relaying the information to the bench via phone or text message, Cora "arranged for a video room technician to install a monitor displaying the center field camera feed immediately outside of the Astros' dugout," according to the report. Players watched the camera live and, upon decoding the sign, hit the trash can with a bat -- and sometimes a Theragun -- to signal to the hitter which pitch was coming. Initially, they had tried clapping, whistling or yelling, Manfred wrote, but players determined the trash can was the best use of relaying the sign.
While the banging scheme was discontinued before the 2018 season, Manfred wrote, "the Astros' replay review room staff continued, at least for part of the 2018 season, to decode signs using the live center field camera feed, and to transmit the signs to the dugout through in-person communication." That practice ended during the 2018 season when players believed it was no longer effective.
Evil exists. You can not negotiate with, bribe or placate evil. You're not going to be able to have it sit down with Dr. Phil for an anger management session either.
January 13, 2020, 05:27 PM
berto
Players are still allowed to try to steal signs while standing on or around second base while their team is at bat. The penalty remains a fastball a little more inside than they might like when batting again. That's part of the never ending boys will be boys if you ain't cheating if you ain't trying ethos of the game from the very beginning.
Previous shenanigans in the 60s and 70s using scoreboard lights or pitchers on their off day sitting in the bleachers and holding up cards were kinda brushed aside and the the penalty was to replay the game if the cheating team won. Nothing ever came of it. It was a different time, it wasn't rampant (just a few instances), and it was more difficult to transmit actionable information in a timely manner.
What's different here is the use of technology and the use of said technology after every team was put on notice to stop. The penalties are fair and I think a broadside to let teams know that there should be no further shenanigans in this area as technology changes and makes this kind of thing easier and perhaps more difficult to detect.
January 13, 2020, 05:32 PM
RHINOWSO
So I guess the Astros World Series win gets an *** behind it now?
Like Bons, McGuire, and Sosa with all their extra "juice".
January 13, 2020, 06:15 PM
smschulz
You know in boxing they say "protect yourself at all times". Seems if you are sending signals that someone could be watching. Pretty stupid, IMO. As far as I am concerned any self-righteous asshole who calls it cheating is just a pussy.
Same goes for the past "Inflate-Gate" bullshit.
Just let 'em play and let the chips fall where they may.
——————————————— The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Psalm 14:1
January 13, 2020, 06:21 PM
remsig
quote:
Originally posted by PowerSurge:
quote:
Originally posted by jhe888:
quote:
Originally posted by fpuhan:
??? MLB comes down hard on a team for cheating, the owner fires those responsible, and you're done with MLB? I don't get it.
Not only does he want them drawn and quartered, he wants their bodies displayed in the public square.
These penalties are draconian, and I think they are excessive, so I think that believing that they should be even more severe is inexplicable.
You’re a great bloviator, jhe, I’ll give you that.
Ha ha PowerSurge! jhe is from Texas. Perhaps he's an Astro's fan and is upset his team got caught cheating?
Houston should have their title stripped too.
It also looks like Cora will be hit hard as well, and rightfully so. Too bad Beltran looks like he will skate.
January 13, 2020, 06:34 PM
soflaac
quote:
Originally posted by smschulz:
As far as I am concerned any self-righteous asshole who calls it cheating is just a pussy.
"after an MLB investigation found the team used technology to cheat during its World Series-winning 2017 season"
The people who not only administrate the actual league, but publish and enforce the rules of the game.........yah, Pussies. You got it pard.
What MLB really needs to show us they're Manly Men - RollerBall
<>< America, Land of the Free - because of the Brave
January 13, 2020, 06:39 PM
craigcpa
quote:
Originally posted by jhe888:
quote:
Originally posted by fpuhan:
??? MLB comes down hard on a team for cheating, the owner fires those responsible, and you're done with MLB? I don't get it.
Not only does he want them drawn and quartered, he wants their bodies displayed in the public square.
These penalties are draconian, and I think they are excessive, so I think that believing that they should be even more severe is inexplicable.
So says the local...
Casual fan of baseball, but what’s in the public domain, well, is it really stealing?
========================================== Just my 2¢ ____________________________
Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right ♫♫♫
January 13, 2020, 07:03 PM
old rugged cross
The loss of the 1st and 2nd round draft picks this year and next are huge. As a Mariners fan I like our league and like some things about the Astro's. Liked Hinch, Springer, Bregman, etc.
It was huge hammer for sure. The fact the owner fired the manager and GM speaks volumes imho.
I knew there would be response's like smschultz
I am not happy that they got whacked but think since the hammer was what it was. They probably deserved what they got.
"Practice like you want to play in the game"
January 13, 2020, 07:06 PM
midwest guy
The actions by MLB were not draconian, sounds like Boston and Alex Cora are next.
January 13, 2020, 07:07 PM
berto
quote:
Originally posted by craigcpa:
So says the local...
Casual fan of baseball, but what’s in the public domain, well, is it really stealing?
Teams were told to cease using technology to steal signs. The Astros kept using technology to steal signs.
January 13, 2020, 08:03 PM
midwest guy
With the Astros rampant sign stealing I have heard the comment,” there really wasn’t any harm and it is not as severe as the steroid age. So if I’m a pitcher who faced the Astros and my E.R.A is adversely affected because of electronic sign stealing, when I go to arbitration it is costing me big bucks. Steroid abuse was practiced player wide, pitcher and hitters were both cheating hence leveling the playing field. There is no question pitchers were seriously harmed monetarily who faced the Houston Astros.
Let the chips fall where they may, we will see how good Altuve and Springer are this year!
January 13, 2020, 08:47 PM
smschulz
quote:
Originally posted by jhe888:
These penalties are draconian, and I think they are excessive, so I think that believing that they should be even more severe is inexplicable.
