Youre missing the point here boss...

YES. The decision to take the course he did sealed their fate.

HOWEVER. There were countless other aspects to the incident. There were also influeances that contributed to his exercising that poor judgement. He didnt get up that morning and say "I think Im going to kill myself and crew today." It wasnt a suicide.

If you can isolate those individual items, they can be addressed. Then hopefully the understanding of "why" (as it pertains to those seemingly unconnected items) can be taken into account in the future. This way, those seemingly miniscule and non-relevant items will not rear their head in the NEXT chain of events.

Its not about blame. Its not about the Faro. Its not about the crew and ship lost. Its about what happens for every ship (or airplane) that sets out in the future.

Edit to add:

Some of the findings may seem mundane and trivial. (Im just tossing out an example here out of my ass...). Perhaps they will find one of the reasons for flooding was a door that couldnt be latched properly. Or maybe the hinge pin on that door failed under stress. As mentioned above, maybe they will address some of the "unwritten but understood" reasons behind that poor decision he made.

Ive been interviewed by the NTSB in relation to a fatal accident before. At the time, I couldnt understand why I was being talked to as I was prolly about 10 layers removed from the incident...but interview me they did. Point being there was NO stone left unturned. Now...discussing what they find UNDER those stones is an entirely different thread.

Those of us who work in the industry....most industries these days, have a pretty good idea why he sailed that route. And this was discussed in the original thread during the time of the sinking. Company pressures in situations like these exist and that's all there is to it. They won't admit it, but it's there.

quote:

Originally posted by entropy:
Its not about blame.

Sure it is. That's the whole point.

No offense, but not sure why you keep poking me in the eye with a sharp stick. It does hurt however, so therefor I am stopping.

I'm not poking anyone with any thing. I'm stating my position. If you don't like that my opinion is counter to yours, that's your problem, not mine.

I don't need any seafaring expertise to see that this captain killed himself and his entire crew.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
I'm not poking anyone with any thing. I'm stating my position. If you don't like that my opinion is counter to yours, that's your problem, not mine.

I don't need any seafaring expertise to see that this captain killed himself and his entire crew.

I'm not disagreeing with you. Rather, I am offering MY opinion on the purpose and effect of both the USCG investigation (the process of which I am not familiar) and the NTSB investigation (the process of which I am familiar).

It's easy and simple to say "Its the Captains fault and he killed the crew." However, by taking that position AND NOT LOOKING AT THE OTHER CAUSAL FACTORS ASSOCIATED WITH IT you are ignoring perhaps key items that may save lives in the future. This is REGARDLESS of the actions of the ships Captain.

Here is an example:

Im sure you are familiar with the "WHOOP WHOOP!!! PULL UP!!!" aural warning associated with what is called the GPWS system on a transport catagory airplane right? We've all heard that a million times on the news, TV, etc... Do you know how that piece of equipment became mandated though?

Back in 1974, a TWA Boeing 727 crashed into a mountain top near Front Royal, VA killing all aboard. The cause of the accident was determined to be the crews (read Captain's) inability to maintain situational awarness during the process of an instrument approach in poor weather conditions. As a result of that accident several things were changed, one of which was mandating GPWS systems on commercial aircraft.

So, while cheap, neat and simple to simply blame the guy in charge and walk away in disgust, doing such leaves many things on the table that all can benefit from down the road. If we had simply excoriated the Captain and not looked further into WHY, no doubt many more lives would have been lost after that incident due to the SAME issues.

And THAT is MY point.

Fine, but you seem to want to convince me that my opinion is wrong. That's a dead end.

My comments in this thread stand.

Having participated in many maritime accident investigation in my 10 years in the USCG I will give my unsolicited opinion.

The captain of the El Faro is the reason that ship sank.

Will the board find items that contributed like poor material condition of machinery/equipment, insufficient crew training, lack of maintenance, etc? It sure will.

Will there be lessons learned from these other findings? Probably.

In the end though it was the captain that refused to plot a course to avoid weather and the buck stops with him.

Regardless of pressure from the vessel owner, operator or shippers he is to blame.

Even people that have no maritime experience would know the prudent thing to do would have been to avoid the storm.

And to be clear, on my end I never suggested we let the Captain off the hook for his actions. I beleive we need to learn from his errors...no matter how grievous they were or how they were caused. By doing anything other would be a dishonor to the crew that paid the sacrifice.

OK...baxk to politics then?

A week after the El Faro sunk I ran into a good friend who is a merchant marine capt of over 30 years for a very large container ship company and he capt's very large container ships all over the world. Very laid back guy. I asked him for is opinion of what happened, quote : Captain killed the crew!"

Took me back a bit, but he was dead serious. Again, only a week after the sinking. He went onto say that the Captain of the El Faro gave himself no escape options. He said he would have stayed in Jax an extra day, problem solved. He said in all the time he has been a capt he has never lost a single piece of cargo over the side. I will take his word.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Know what helps you keep from sinking when your ship is leaky?

Not sailing into a hurricane. It helps a lot.

The incompetence and poor judgment of the captain of that ship killed himself and his crew.

quote:

originally posted by maddy345:
Having participated in many maritime accident investigation in my 10 years in the USCG I will give my unsolicited opinion.

The captain of the El Faro is the reason that ship sank.

Will the board find items that contributed like poor material condition of machinery/equipment, insufficient crew training, lack of maintenance, etc? It sure will.

Will there be lessons learned from these other findings? Probably.

In the end though it was the captain that refused to plot a course to avoid weather and the buck stops with him.

Regardless of pressure from the vessel owner, operator or shippers he is to blame.

Even people that have no maritime experience would know the prudent thing to do would have been to avoid the storm.

Para, I'd like to mirror Maddy's comments and yours. I was a professional sailor for 21 years. I investigated many sinkings and fires. Most often it was the condition of the ship that lead to the incident.

But one person is responsible for that ship getting underway-THE CAPTAIN. This sinking and loss of life could have been completely avoided by staying tied up to the pier for one day to allow the track of the hurricane to be determined.

The Captain got his crew killed.

As my username suggests I was a Gloucester Commercial fishermen as a young man. I grew up on the North Atlantic and witnessed many commercial vessels head out to sea and never return. Many times it is poor judgment on the part of the captain, plain and simple. I worked for one such captain, he had a nasty habit of falling asleep at the wheel. The auto pilot would be engaged guiding the boat and he would be snoozing away. I used to wake him up send him to his bunk and take his watch and mine. At times I would bring to boat all the way into the harbor before I woke him up. Once I had the balls to tie the boat up to the dock and start unloading fish before waking him. He was not amused! Finally I quit and went to another boat. Two friends of mine then went to work for him. I cautioned them about him but it did no good. He fell asleep one night and drove her up on the rocks off Gloucester. Luckily everyone survived, the boat was a total loss. Bottom line is there are lots of ways to die on the oceans and a Captain that makes poor choices is one of the main reasons for maritime disasters. My condolences to the crew and their families..

quote:

Originally posted by MikeinNC:

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Know what helps you keep from sinking when your ship is leaky?

Not sailing into a hurricane. It helps a lot.

The incompetence and poor judgment of the captain of that ship killed himself and his crew.

quote:

originally posted by maddy345:
Having participated in many maritime accident investigation in my 10 years in the USCG I will give my unsolicited opinion.

The captain of the El Faro is the reason that ship sank.

Will the board find items that contributed like poor material condition of machinery/equipment, insufficient crew training, lack of maintenance, etc? It sure will.

Will there be lessons learned from these other findings? Probably.

In the end though it was the captain that refused to plot a course to avoid weather and the buck stops with him.

Regardless of pressure from the vessel owner, operator or shippers he is to blame.

Even people that have no maritime experience would know the prudent thing to do would have been to avoid the storm.

Para, I'd like to mirror Maddy's comments and yours. I was a professional sailor for 21 years. I investigated many sinkings and fires. Most often it was the condition of the ship that lead to the incident.

But one person is responsible for that ship getting underway-THE CAPTAIN. This sinking and loss of life could have been completely avoided by staying tied up to the pier for one day to allow the track of the hurricane to be determined.

The Captain got his crew killed.

So are you denying the value of these investigations after such an incident because that simple fact may be obvious to you? It's very easy to say it's the Captain's fault because that's very true in the macro sense. But in the micro sense it's not that simple.

And frankly, if the Captain stayed tied up to the pier every time there was a forecast for bad weather, he likely wouldn't have a job. When millions of dollars ride on decisions you have to make on a daily basis, it's going to factor into the equation and affect your final determination. It's not black and white. It's not as simple as a "if this...Then do this" scenario.

Ships get caught in bad weather often, and sometimes that weather can turn out to be much worse than anticipated. The issue at hand here is not only why this Captain made the decisions that he did, but what other factors contributed to it being a fatal decision. This same Captain may have sailed ten other different vessels through the same exact storm and made it to port without any issue. In this case, a chain of events happened that was different to any other. An error chain was forged, and it's important to understand why that chain wasn't broken.

The first link may have been how the cargo in the #3 hold was secured. The second link may be the Captain's choice of route. The third link perhaps may be the failure to protect the fire pump suction piping in the cargo hold, and so on. I'm speculating now as to what caused the flooding, but break any of those links, and the El Faro would still be sailing today despite the Captain's poor decision that day.

Such revelations from these investigations have saved lives in the past and will save lives in the future. I have a particular interest in the outcome here for obvious reasons. I believe these hearings do hold significant value and are worthwhile.

Jesus. Don't drive 692,000 tons of stuff into a hurricane.

As has been noted in this thread, this is common sense, no maritime experience required.

That boat- with its leaks and its failing pumps and whatever- would not have sunk had it not been for the captain saying oh hey a hurricane no prob.

First, may they all rest in peace.

Question: Any ideas about what was AB-1's problem at the end - what couldn't he do/why did he need help? Was it panic, or did he fall or something and I missed it in the transcript?

quote:

Originally posted by mikeyspizza:
First, may they all rest in peace.

Question: Any ideas about what was AB-1's problem at the end - what couldn't he do/why did he need help? Was it panic, or did he fall or something and I missed it in the transcript?

I don't think you missed anything. I think he was probably literally scared stiff.

quote:

Originally posted by maddy345:

quote:

Originally posted by mikeyspizza:
First, may they all rest in peace.

Question: Any ideas about what was AB-1's problem at the end - what couldn't he do/why did he need help? Was it panic, or did he fall or something and I missed it in the transcript?

I don't think you missed anything. I think he was probably literally scared stiff.

Yes. He appeared to be quite simply scared witless.

Wow. That was quite sobering. It's hard to imagine knowing your doomed fate.

quote:

Originally posted by mikeyspizza:
First, may they all rest in peace.

Question: Any ideas about what was AB-1's problem at the end - what couldn't he do/why did he need help? Was it panic, or did he fall or something and I missed it in the transcript?

He was asking for a ladder at the end. I interpreted it as the ship was in the process of sinking, and as such, gravity took him (left/down/up/right) and he couldn't reach an exit as the floor was no longer oriented in a normal horizontal fashion. You can just tell they were terrified in the end.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Know what helps you keep from sinking when your ship is leaky?

Not sailing into a hurricane. It helps a lot.

The incompetence and poor judgment of the captain of that ship killed himself and his crew.

I agree with this 100%.

The Hurricane set off a chain of events that all combined caused the sinking.

I believe from hearing the entire transcript, that none of the below deck cargo was storm lashed nor did they have any storm lashings on board, so it just broke free because the normal lashings weren't strong enough. This caused the list, in addition, it was believed the loose cargo broke the fire main and that caused the major flooding. I don't know if they will ever know exactly due to the depth she is sitting at.

Listing caused them to lose propulsion (plant lost lube oil and shut down) and once she started drifting, within minutes it was game over.