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Sigforum K9 handler |
M11/9? That’s classy in a Miami Vice sort of way.  | |||
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Oriental Redneck |
I cut out all your mumbo jumbo irrelevant to the 4473 situation. What you feel like (a non-binary) is meaningless in a state that only recognizes male and female on their ID/DL. You want to check the "non-binary" box on the 4473, that's your prerogative. But, if your DL says you're a male (or female), your FFL can deny you if you don't make the correction. Who are you going to sue? The FFL for doing his job legally? I would love to see what lawyer is going to take up your ridiculous "civil rights" case.  If you have a beef with your state DL, take it up with your state.
Who the hell cares whether you get the new ID or not. It's up to you to decide whether you want to receive your gun. * Get a new ID and check the non-binary box on the 4473 = get gun * Use the old ID and check Male (or Female) on the 4473 = get gun * Or, use the old ID and check (Non-binary) on the 4473 = get deniedThis message has been edited. Last edited by: 12131, Q | |||
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Member |
Not to mention an FFL can deny you a transfer simply because he thinks the customer is a dumbass. Then you can pay him to transfer it somewhere else or he can send it back where it came from. FFL isn't obligated to transfer anything... Pretty sure that has been mentioned before. 11 years to retirement! Just waiting! | |||
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Step by step walk the thousand mile road |
The Virginia State Police perform the background check rather than the FBI's NICS Center. As a licensee, I enter the data from the 4473 and the companion Virginia Form SP 65 directly into the background check system. In response to the OP, the field for "race" does not match the pick list on the 4473 or the companion Virginia Form SP 65 (e.g., there is a category of "unknown" under "race"). In addition there is no place to enter "ethnicity" from the 4473 on the Virginia system. IF you combine the choices for "race" and "ethnicity" on the 4473 and SP65 you still don't match the "race" pick list in the Virginia background check system. Likewise, there is no option for "nonbiniary" on the Virginia form. As for the idea a licensee can deny a person for any reason they choose, I'm not so sure that is a valid idea in our post-Heller and post-McDonald world. Those SCOTUS decisions state clearly that keeping and bearing arms in an individual right guaranteed by the Constitution. I've denied people because their background check came back "DENIED," and I've refused because the person was unable to correctly fill out the 4473 (that one case smelled like a 'gotchya' attempt by an anti-gun group). But to decide to deny a person because you don't like the way they look fails to recognize the holdins in Heller and McDonald, and does sound like a potential civil rights lawsuit in the offing (if only by an ambulance chaser hoping for a small pay off to make them go away). I say this because the status of a licensee as not subject to compliance with the Constitution is blurred at best - we collect information using government forms which we then warehouse for 20 years or return to the government if we go out of business before 20 years has elapsed; we collect fees (a FEE not a tax) for the background check, etc. That starts to look like we are acting in a capacity as an agent of the federal and state government. And its too early to have looked, but I do not recall seeing anywhere in the FFL application or on the license itself that says the licensee is NOT acting as an agent of the government. Thus my policy is that any denial must be for an articulable, objective reason and must be documented in an MFR that accompanies the package for a DENIED response (i.e., the licensee must retain the 4473 and SP65 for DENIED responses) or for the extraordinarily rare case where it never got to that point. Nice is overrated "It's every freedom-loving individual's duty to lie to the government." Airsoftguy, June 29, 2018 | |||
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| Member |
I was actually being slightly sarcastic when I asked this question. The point I was trying to make is that I think there are a lot of possibilities for race that are not on the form, but you have to fit into one of the government's chosen category. But I have never met anyone that started out as anything other than a man or woman. Could Elizabeth Warren or Rachel Dolezal get into trouble for filling out the form incorrectly? I once filled out a background check form for the Government that had a bunch of race possibilities and a place for other and wanted you to put in your race. I put in WHMF. | |||
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| Ammoholic |
Yeah, it kinda annoyed me when the AME (doc) said I couldn’t put brown anymore for the color, it had to be grey. Next, it’ll prolly be sunburnt. Sigh... | |||
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| Member |
You really don't. That's not one of the primary things they check when actually running the NICS check, it's more of something to just have a record of as I understand it. I can't speak for states that have their own system as I never operated as an FFL in one. I know of one person that was so offended by even having to put down race they always checked every available one, and they got a proceed every time. | |||
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| Member |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by alptraum: You really don't. That's not one of the primary things they check when actually running the NICS check, it's more of something to just have a record of as I understand it. I can't speak for states that have their own system as I never operated as an FFL in one. I know of one person that was so offended by even having to put down race they always checked every available one, and they got a proceed every time.[/QUOTE I think checking every available race is an excellent idea. The next time I talk to a dealer, I will ask him about that. | |||
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| Member |
Depends on the state. Some collect race and ethnicity, some don't, some collect weight and some don't. Some collect hair color and some don't. Some things that are collected do not appear on the DL. Diy example, my state collects weight, but it does not appear on the DL. It does, however, show up on the electronic record that law enforcement sees. | |||
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| Member |
The purpose of the 4473 and NICS is to positively identify the buyer and determine if they are not disqualified from owning a firearm. The material questions are those that provide identity, and the series of yes/no questions about disqualifying events. Race, gender, and ethnicity are not material to the transaction, as long as identity can be positively determined by photo ID. My Indiana DL does not indicate race or ethnicity so I could put anything on the 4473 and the FFL would not know. It does indicate sex but not gender so again if the question is "gender" I could put anything on the 4473 since gender and sex are no longer legally the same thing. I certainly agree that we have reached an absurd point in human history with regard to sex vs. gender and militant transgenderism, and I will assume the negative responses to my post are based on that. But the law is not what you would like it to be, or think it should be. And if you don't have an FFL then don't talk like you know all about how it works. No one is getting prosecuted for filling out the "wrong" race, ethnicity, or gender on a 4473. Even people who get denied for lying about a material issue almost never get prosecuted. It's like saying "if you buy something on the internet have them send it USPS because if they rip you off it's a federal crime". Yeah, try getting a US Attorney to file a federal case for a couple hundred dollar fraud. Not going to happen - ask a postal inspector. FFL's are in the business of selling guns, not deciding who is allowed to buy them. As long as the buyer can present valid ID, fill out the form and pass the background check, they can buy a gun. The primary area where an FFL can and should exercise discretion is when they have a reasonable belief that the transaction is a straw purchase. Some people are dumb enough to ask how to answer the first question, or say out loud it's "for a bf, friend, etc." However many first timers make mistakes, especially when they are buying a gun as a gift for a family member and innocently mention it. Or they are buying it for themselves, but bf, gf, spouse presents the credit card. Now, if a guy looking like a ghetto thug walks in and asks to buy 3 Krinkovs on the spot, what are you going to do? I just saw this actually happen... | |||
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| No double standards |
Don't worry bigdeal, once(if) Biden/Kamala get into office, they will fix that issue. "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women. When it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it....While it lies there, it needs no constitution, no law, no court to save it" - Judge Learned Hand, May 1944 | |||
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. . semi-reformed sailor |
Actually, that is legal...you are in fact the buyer...the fact that you are later going to give it away doesn’t fit into the equation. I have purchased several guns and gifted them to people. I always answered the question truthfully and legally. [/drift] "Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.” Robert A. Heinlein “You may beat me, but you will never win.” sigmonkey-2020 “A single round of buckshot to the torso almost always results in an immediate change of behavior.” Chris Baker | |||
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| california tumbles into the sea |
Go to the sporting goods store. From the files obtain forms 4473. These will contain descriptions of weapons, and lists of private ownership. | |||
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Hop head  |
another VA FFL/SOT here, and yep, you can deny all day long, but you need to have a reason, just cause may get you in trouble, (it's better to deny based on a comment, habit, etc that can be articulated well, not just feelz) often the ones that you think just maybe screw up the form (self deny, the best kind) or don't pass the background check, or you just have to give them the old, sorry, we are not completing this transaction talk, anyway, your DL better match the 4473, and both need to match the SP-65, hispanic, for whatever reason, will come up unknown in the Va Vchek system, fun times when the hispanic guy checks the hispanic box on the 4473, then refuses to check one of the other 5 options under race, and you have to tell him, sorry, pick one or no firearm, then go thru each one with him saying, did anyone in your family, or were any of your ancestors, (insert race here) and you often have to explain by location, as in are your parents, or ancestors from Europe, or any of the countries that border the Mediterranean, etc, including Spain, when they say yes, Spain, I congratulate them for being a white guy (look up the definition of caucasian/white by the .gov) one dude got a bit warm, esp when his girlfriend laughed at him and said 'I told you that you were a white dude) https://www.chesterfieldarmament.com/ | |||
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| semi-reformed sailor |
HA! Wolverines "Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.” Robert A. Heinlein “You may beat me, but you will never win.” sigmonkey-2020 “A single round of buckshot to the torso almost always results in an immediate change of behavior.” Chris Baker | |||
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| Step by step walk the thousand mile road |
I once joked that BATFE was going to update the “sex” and “race” questions on the 4473. The change to “sex” would add another page of options ad 26 pages of instructions on how to answer the new “gender identity” question. But the “race” question... holy smoke, when BATFE changed it to “cultural, economic, racial, and social identity”... the Northern Spotted Owl, the RedCockaded Woodpecker, and 162 species of threatened and endangered species of insects and plants were driven into extinction by the press release announcing the planned change. I may yet be proved right. Nice is overrated "It's every freedom-loving individual's duty to lie to the government." Airsoftguy, June 29, 2018 | |||
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