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| Member |
I bought a new gun today. When I filled out the form 4473, it had two questions about my race, with several different options. Then it asked me about my gender. I had three options, Male, Female and nonbinary. I am curious how someone that does not know if they are a man or woman, can know what race they are, even with all of the available options? I asked the dealer and he did not know. | ||
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| Left-Handed, NOT Left-Winged! |
NICS is going to do the background check based on how you answer, so being consistent with any gov't records that are reportable to NICS is important. Check a different race than what the records say you should be, red flag, might be lying about other things. That said, if you check non-binary they can't really do much because like you said, anyone can check that if they feel like it. But if you say you are the opposite sex, then that might flag you too. Go ahead and try it, tell us how it goes... | |||
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Sigforum K9 handler |
No. If you check “non-binary”, your ID had better reflect it. If you check it, and your identification (even the application), you have provided materially false information on the 4473, and you can be charged. The instructions are clear as to what constitutes false entries, and “self identify” fits neatly into that category. It could be charged on the state or federal level in most states. | |||
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Oriental Redneck |
Yup, what you put down on the 4473 has to match what's on your DL. If you don't, the astute FFL dealer will catch it and make you correct your mistake. Dealers do not want the ATF breathing down their neck for irregularities, no matter how inconsequential they might seem. My DL has me at 5'1". One time, I put down 5'2" on the 4473. FFL caught it, and I had to correct it. Q | |||
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| Sigforum K9 handler |
Or the dealer can just deny the transfer. All FFL dealers are under no obligation per the conditions of their licenses to complete the transfer. | |||
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The cake is a lie! |
What about weight? I'm sure I put various weights down on my forms as weight can fluctuate throughout the years. | |||
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| Sigforum K9 handler |
It’s been a day or two, but I think the weight block actually says “approximate” in the instructions. Hair is similar iirc as hair colors change. I don’t think my DL lists weight, and I know it doesn’t list hair color. | |||
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| Oriental Redneck |
Yup, no weight on DL. Folks gain and lose weight. They (adults) don't just keep getting taller. No hair color on DL, either. It's not an identifiably fixed characteristic, since folks can change their hair color. So, it really means little to have hair color on a DL. Eye color is on it (DL). Sure, you can put colored contacts on, but you can't dye your iris to a different color. Q | |||
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Member |
But I'm confused. I thought we could change our gender according to how we feel on a particular day. Isn't that what we've been force fed over the past half dozen years?   Long story short, don't screw around with the 4473. ----------------------------- Guns are awesome because they shoot solid lead freedom. Every man should have several guns. And several dogs, because a man with a cat is a woman. Kurt Schlichter | |||
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| SF Jake |
Call me crazy but....if someone checked the “non-binary” box....wouldn’t that raise a red flag about their mental health? It should! ________________________ Those who trade liberty for security have neither | |||
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| An investment in knowledge pays the best interest |
My current DL lists weight and the one prior listed both characteristics. | |||
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| Be not wise in thine own eyes  |
Yep hair or no hair as well. I said blonde and FFL corrected me and said bald. Driver License said blonde 4473 said bald with no issues. “We’re in a situation where we have put together, and you guys did it for our administration…President Obama’s administration before this. We have put together, I think, the most extensive and inclusive voter fraud organization in the history of American politics,” Pres. Select, Joe Biden “Let’s go, Brandon” Kelli Stavast, 2 Oct. 2021 | |||
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| Oriental Redneck |
Where on the 4473 does it ask about hair? https://www.atf.gov/firearms/d...-form-53009/download Q | |||
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| Left-Handed, NOT Left-Winged! |
Less than 20 states allow a "non-binary" option on state ID. So if one identifies as "non-binary" in a state that does not recognize it on a driver's license, then how is someone supposed to answer the BATFE form? Answer in line with ID, which to a non-binary person is not factually true to them, or answer in line with their self identification, which is true to them. How about state ID issued prior to when that state started allowing non-binary on ID? Should one get it reissued as soon as it is permitted on a state ID? How about a passport that is legal picture ID just the same as a driver's license? There is no non-binary option, unless one was recently added this year. Since passports are good for 10 years they won't be updated for many years, even after such options are allowed. In addition to a passport you only need proof of address which can be done with a vehicle registration. And it would be really stupid to select non-binary for international travel if you ever might set foot in a country that does not take kindly to such things - which includes much of the middle east, Africa, and large parts of Asia. I was pointing out the absurdity of the entire thing. Since "non-binary" self identities are basically all in someone's mind and not their body, it can be anything and change at any time, regardless of whether or not the ID issuing agency recognizes it or not. So then HOW may I ask is NICS supposed to verify any of this? Everyone jumping on the "lie on the form you can get denied and it's a crime" bandwagon - think about it first. And when an FFL denies a transfer to someone that is binary on their DL and non-binary on the BATFE form, just wait for the civil rights lawsuit... | |||
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Prepared for the Worst, Providing the Best |
Depends on the state. Indiana includes height, weight, hair, and eye color....but there are plenty of states that only include some of the above. I always put my current weight on the 4473, which varies pretty drastically from the weight on my DL (I lost quite a bit over the past few years), and it has never caused a problem when they run my background check. | |||
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| Member |
I noticed this when I bought a gun aces weeks ago. California has weight, eye and hair color on the ID. Leave it to the fedgov to be inconsistent. I’m in mortgages and a mortgage application is on a federal form. You get to voluntarily choose race sex and gender and national origin (as of now male or female only choices) if I don’t meet you in person for your loan application get to put whatever you self identify as. If I meet with you in person I am required to use my judgement as to your race and gender and national origin. What a time to be alive. | |||
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| Dances With Tornados |
I suppose Meat Popsicle is not an option with reference to Bruce Willis. | |||
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| Sigforum K9 handler |
I’m not sure if this is a legitimate question, or if you are being obtuse. NICS does not “verify” any information on the 4473. It is up to the dealer. There is plenty of case law that dealers can deny a transfer for no reason at all. Let alone statements on a form that do not match a state issued ID. There is no civil rights violation in your scenario. It’s the equivalent of every drunk telling me that they’re going to fight their DUI arrest all the way to the Supreme Court, and have my job. | |||
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Member |
On the CCW renewal I just turned in to the Sheriff, I upped my weight from what it was 5 years ago, and I noticed the clerk highlighted that when he was reviewing the application/preparing it for forwarding to the Sheriff. | |||
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| Be not wise in thine own eyes |
Ah! good catch. It was on the FBI Fingerprint form FD-258 when mailing off Form 4’s for M-11/Nine & Suppressor. That was a while ago as I already have the tax stamps. Since your photo goes along with it, guess it was a mute point. “We’re in a situation where we have put together, and you guys did it for our administration…President Obama’s administration before this. We have put together, I think, the most extensive and inclusive voter fraud organization in the history of American politics,” Pres. Select, Joe Biden “Let’s go, Brandon” Kelli Stavast, 2 Oct. 2021 | |||
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