quote:

Originally posted by Silent:
All its electrical components were made by a company named Lucas. Which was British for junk.

Lucas = The Prince of Darkness.

[/QUOTE]

Why do the British drink warm beer? Because Lucas also builds refrigerators.

What Does BMW stand for.? Bring More With you.

quote:

Originally posted by acidjazz:
I had a Volkswagen years ago when I was younger. It burned fuel like a truck, rattled itself loose and all the parts and maintenance was Rolls Royce expensive.
I ditched it for a Toyota which gave me over 10 years of trouble-free miles and did not rattle apart.
Now I have a Toyota and a new Mustang 5.0. Both of them are reliable, well built cars and very inexpensive to maintain and buy parts for.

But anybody I know with a VW, Audi, BMW, Mercedes, ooh man.
They burn oil, they require very expensive maintenance, they have little part failures like power windows, etc. that wouldn't happen on a Kia.
If Ford or Chevy can build a performance V8 with incredible power and reliability, why does BMW build something that can't hold itself together for 80,000 miles without extreme maintenance costs or trips to the mechanic?

This is just sort of expected. As soon as the warranty's up, sell the car or expect to pay huge repair bills.

Don't get me wrong, Ford, GM, Toyota, Mazda, whoever bring out real shit cars every so often, but they don't expect you to fork over four-figure repair bills to keep the car humming along at low mileage.

Basically you are living in the past, you've listened to one or two horror stories from someone and applied it to every German car, and or you have no clue whatsoever about modern cars. Rolls Royce expensive?? Dude... get a grip. This is mostly in your head.

It's all about who maintained and drove the car.

Supply chain, external vendors, quality control, and data driven continuous improvement models. The Japanese are way better at it than the Germans. Anyone in the systems engineering business feels like they're learning about the next Pokemon because of all the Japanese terms you learn.

Performance argument? Garbage. Power output on a Lexus matches any BMW. And we have most of the same engine selections as the European versions. Usually we just lack the 1.6 to 1.8 liter engines.
Sophistication? BS. Sophistication isn't having a touchscreen GPS that lets you choose the accent of the voice. It's about having a switch that doesn't break after 100,000 presses.
And is not even where the cars are made. Most are produced in the US these days, sometimes then even sent to Europe or Asia.

There is more flawless engineering in an Accord or Camry than in an M3 or A8. You just don't see it because "it just works". Don't believe me? Honda and Acura proved they can make excellent supercars (LFA, NSX). The Germans still haven't made a minivan that withstands a 2+2 family and a dog, and each attempt is increasingly comedic (R Class, Routan, or any of the 2/3 sized ones they don't even bother bringing to the US).

Are BMWs a bit more fun to drive? Sure. But from my experience, any current gen non-performance line Audi or Mercedes is on par with an Acura or Lexus in that department. And you can blame SUV cash cow sales for that.

quote:

Originally posted by caneau:
Supply chain, external vendors, quality control, and data driven continuous improvement models. The Japanese are way better at it than the Germans. Anyone in the systems engineering business feels like they're learning about the next Pokemon because of all the Japanese terms you learn.

Performance argument? Garbage. Power output on a Lexus matches any BMW. And we have most of the same engine selections as the European versions. Usually we just lack the 1.6 to 1.8 liter engines.
Sophistication? BS. Sophistication isn't having a touchscreen GPS that lets you choose the accent of the voice. It's about having a switch that doesn't break after 100,000 presses.
And is not even where the cars are made. Most are produced in the US these days, sometimes then even sent to Europe or Asia.

There is more flawless engineering in an Accord or Camry than in an M3 or A8. You just don't see it because "it just works". Don't believe me? Honda and Acura proved they can make excellent supercars (LFA, NSX). The Germans still haven't made a minivan that withstands a 2+2 family and a dog, and each attempt is increasingly comedic (R Class, Routan, or any of the 2/3 sized ones they don't even bother bringing to the US).

Are BMWs a bit more fun to drive? Sure. But from my experience, any current gen non-performance line Audi or Mercedes is on par with an Acura or Lexus in that department. And you can blame SUV cash cow sales for that.

I never said that Japanese vehicles weren't superior when it comes to utmost component reliability. I think it would be hard to argue against that. Also, while interior quality on a Lexus or Infinity may rival the materials on many European cars, I still feel their interiors are not quite as luxurious. And I don't care if a Lexus infotainment system will hold up to 100,000 button pushes if I hate the system so bad that I don't want to push that button due to dislike of the system. I'm sorry but the Lexus quasi track ball interface sucks compared to what is offered by BMW, Mercedes, Volvo, Audi, etc.

Ultimately, I stand by my initial post. If pure reliability and low total cost of ownership is what is most important to you then Honda or Toyota is about as good as you can get. However those traits often come at a cost of pure driving excitement or luxury. My wife and her family have owned Hondas exclusively for as long as I've known her - almost 16 years. After having our first German car with a new German car on the way for us she is now done with new Hondas. When her current CRV lease is over in a few months she will not be getting another (she's owned 4 CRV's). She will likely pick up a used Honda Accord or Civic as a commuter car and use that vehicle exclusively to go back and forth to work so she'll get excellent fuel economy and won't worry about picking up door dings, etc. However that commuter car will be used exclusively for commuting as she vastly prefers driving in something else, even my pickup, to driving in Honda's current offerings.

quote:

Originally posted by caneau:
The Germans still haven't made a minivan that withstands a 2+2 family and a dog, and each attempt is increasingly comedic (R Class, Routan, or any of the 2/3 sized ones they don't even bother bringing to the US).

What is the problem with the Routan? Being just a rebadged Chrysler, I don't think it qualifies as a German made vehicle that hasn't sold well in the U.S. There are a ton of minivans in my neck of the woods.

Is this thread meant to include the Swedes, or is it more of a German rant? The new Volvo SUV seems nice. Also, Volvo trucks and heavy equipment seem to be as well built as any of the domestic makes.

There is the aspect of the European cars being tuned to finer tolerances. They get far more HP out of a production straight six than we get out of a V8.

However my wife has owned two Mercedes a Mini and now a Jaguar. I've owned one BMW.

Maintenance is more expensive but I wouldn't say they were any more likely to break than an equivalent US car. I think that when things DO break a MB owner is more likely to get it fixed than a typical Ford owner.

I will say that the typical MB dealer's customer service is far better than the typical Ford dealer's.

...fit and finish is no contest. Any MB, BMW or Audi beats any domestic or Asian import hands down.

quote:

Why does it seem like European cars are so unreliable and high maintenance?

Because compared to Toyota products, and many other good Japanese brands, they are.

I love German cars, spent many years working on them as a tech, have owned several over the years and still have an old Porsche today. They are wonderful to drive, have very nice interiors, but they just have more issues over the long term than Toyota and Lexus products do.

As life gets busier I have come to appreciate the "boring reliability" as I like to call it from the Toyota products we own. I'll probably drive an Audi again someday, but never again outside of a full warranty, and also not as my only mode of transportation.

Fit and finish on a Q3 is better than on a Lexus LS? Huh? Volvo is Swedish? Not since 2009 unless you think Li Shufu is a Nordic name.

My little Acura ILX has better fit and finish than any entry level Audi or Mercedes. Nothing rattles, nothing squeaks, it all just works. And it feels as well put together now at 65k miles as it did at 20k when I got it.

At the end of the day though, the data backs up what most people think. Take your pick of automotive lifecycle cost calculator and see how much it costs to own a $40,000 Lexus or Acura versus a BMW or Mercedes for 5 years. And people vote with their feet/wallets. The depreciation on your luxury car of choice is drastic. That's why your 12 year old 7 series costs roughly as much as your 12 year old Civic -- Valvetronic is way more expensive to repair and likely to break than VTEC (both in actuality and metaphorically).

But don't believe me. In fact, you shouldn't. Go walk around a Carmax lot. That's a place that excels in collecting B-tier used cars that were ridden hard and put away wet, then selling them to unsuspecting buyers who don't know any better. Test drive 4 or 5 year old cars and see which ones feel the most put together. Let me know if that 5 Series or E-Class still feels as nice as the GS or TL.

And if you think I dislike German cars, I don't. They are wonderful to drive and much better looking than anything Japanese. I just suggest leasing instead of buying -- like 70-80% of the drivers of these cars do. There's good reason for that.

Oh there's one exception to this -- modern Porsches. They seem to have a pretty good handle on keeping quality (and profits) high.

quote:

Originally posted by 46and2:
My three Audis: nearly perfect and error free, and my favorite vehicles to date.

My two Fords: enormous pieces of shit, and one was a money pit, as was my Dodge.

My Toyota and Honda: amazingly reliable and resilient, but way more plain / less plush.

My carburated Harleys: never leaked a drop of oil nor given me problems.

My Yamaha and Honda motos: way more finicky than the Harleys but I still love them.

tl:dr

It varies.

I've also had three audis, three BMW's, and work on almost exclusively high end and exotic european cars. If they're maintained properly they rarely have issues. A friend has a Lamborghini Gallardo with 130,000 miles and the only issue was a clutch replacement at 90k. I know that's anecdotal, but in the past 15 years I've been in the industry, european cars generally seem to have better build quality, lasting much longer.

quote:

Originally posted by cmr076:

quote:

Originally posted by 46and2:
My three Audis: nearly perfect and error free, and my favorite vehicles to date.

My two Fords: enormous pieces of shit, and one was a money pit, as was my Dodge.

My Toyota and Honda: amazingly reliable and resilient, but way more plain / less plush.

My carburated Harleys: never leaked a drop of oil nor given me problems.

My Yamaha and Honda motos: way more finicky than the Harleys but I still love them.

tl:dr

It varies.

I've also had three audis, three BMW's, and work on almost exclusively high end and exotic european cars. If they're maintained properly they rarely have issues. A friend has a Lamborghini Gallardo with 130,000 miles and the only issue was a clutch replacement at 90k. I know that's anecdotal, but in the past 15 years I've been in the industry, european cars generally seem to have better build quality, lasting much longer.

True across the board for a few reasons.
- Labor rates have gone up much faster than inflation, which means manufacturers have to deal with higher warranty repair costs. The math works out that more reliable cars are more profitable for the manufacturer.
- Better feedback loops. Dealer reporting systems are much improved, meaning problems are diagnosed, TSBs issued, and production lines updated faster. Car forums, enthusiast clubs, and social media support this quite a bit as well so long as the manufacturer is paying attention.
- Better supply chain management - true across all industries, we are just seeing the benefits in the automotive space. Enterprise resource planning has vastly improved in the last decade.
- Reliability as a point of marketing driving design decisions - people are keeping cars longer now then ever before. Long term dependability is a huge selling point and JD Power, KBB, and others do a passably decent job of reporting on it.

Most cars are mechanically more reliable now than before. Where things fall apart is the infotainment space because for reasons that seem baffling to me, people want a 7 year old smartphone tech displayed on a cheap LCD display in their dashboard.

quote:

Originally posted by caneau:

quote:

Originally posted by cmr076:

quote:

Originally posted by 46and2:
My three Audis: nearly perfect and error free, and my favorite vehicles to date.

My two Fords: enormous pieces of shit, and one was a money pit, as was my Dodge.

My Toyota and Honda: amazingly reliable and resilient, but way more plain / less plush.

My carburated Harleys: never leaked a drop of oil nor given me problems.

My Yamaha and Honda motos: way more finicky than the Harleys but I still love them.

tl:dr

It varies.

I've also had three audis, three BMW's, and work on almost exclusively high end and exotic european cars. If they're maintained properly they rarely have issues. A friend has a Lamborghini Gallardo with 130,000 miles and the only issue was a clutch replacement at 90k. I know that's anecdotal, but in the past 15 years I've been in the industry, european cars generally seem to have better build quality, lasting much longer.

True across the board for a few reasons.
- Labor rates have gone up much faster than inflation, which means manufacturers have to deal with higher warranty repair costs. The math works out that more reliable cars are more profitable for the manufacturer.
- Better feedback loops. Dealer reporting systems are much improved, meaning problems are diagnosed, TSBs issued, and production lines updated faster. Car forums, enthusiast clubs, and social media support this quite a bit as well so long as the manufacturer is paying attention.
- Better supply chain management - true across all industries, we are just seeing the benefits in the automotive space. Enterprise resource planning has vastly improved in the last decade.
- Reliability as a point of marketing driving design decisions - people are keeping cars longer now then ever before. Long term dependability is a huge selling point and JD Power, KBB, and others do a passably decent job of reporting on it.

Most cars are mechanically more reliable now than before. Where things fall apart is the infotainment space because for reasons that seem baffling to me, people want a 7 year old smartphone tech displayed on a cheap LCD display in their dashboard.

these new cars are going to be a nightmare once they get older, all across the board. Can you imagine a tesla in 15 years. no thank you

Yes, I can. A Tesla in 2032 will have a similar fate as a 2002 Prius does today.

quote:

Originally posted by Silent:

quote:

Originally posted by YooperSigs:
In my HS days, a friend of mine and I went together and bought a used....... Sunbeam.
The only car I have ever owned that hated me. And it tried to kill me once in a cornfield.
All its electrical components were made by a company named Lucas. Which was British for junk.

Lucas = The Prince of Darkness.

When the world was young, I owned a Triumph TR 4A and had to deal with various electrical issues. Even so, it was a really fun car to drive!

My only other significant experience with a European. At is my older daily driver a BMW 5 series with a straight 6. An absolutely phenomenally reliable car.

Silent

In my younger and dumber days I had 2 MGB's (67 and 69) and a 67 Triumph GT6. Think Spitfire with a fastback and a 6 cyl. All had Lucas. The 67 MGB had a 6 volt pos ground and the 67 had 2 six volt batteries in SERIES for 12v. The GT6 was 12v with a generator. The GT6 left me dead in the water at a campground somewhere in the NYS woods. Think banjos. Wound up taking apart a shoe-box size "regulator" that had a bunch of relays in it and cleaning the contacts so the damn thing would start. Ripped out the generator and regulator, rewired and replaced it with an alternator setup from a '71. Worked till I bought at 79 BMW 320I.

Hated Lucas.

I only mess with bikes and toys with carburetors for a few related reasons: simplicity, ease of maintenance, timelessness. Most mdern day vehicles are a nightmare of complexity.

I only drive German cars and never had an issue. Currently on my 5th VW and my 3rd BMW. I don't know what the hoopla is about. I usually do get new cars so maybe that's it. I don't care about long term issues I'm never going to have a car more than 3 years. My problem with even luxury Japanese cars is that they are boring. An extry level 3 series is more fun to drive then a sporty Lexus IS350. I don't give a crap about depreciation as long as I'm enjoying the vehicle now. You only live once.

quote:

Originally posted by Dusty78:
...German cars...I'm never going to have a car more than 3 years...

There's your answer right there.

[/QUOTE] ...An extry level 3 series is more fun to drive then a sporty Lexus IS350...[/QUOTE]

This in spades! As much as I admire the Asian cars for their reliability, the best of them doesn't hold a candle to a lesser or equivalent German car for driving.

My college room mate had a Hyundai Genesis with 400+ horsepower that couldn't handle a slow corner, let alone a fast sweeper, and started losing stability while still under 100mph. I admit, it was almost as comfortable as my C-Class Mercedes. Almost.

It isn't all anecdotal. Consumer Reports rates cars based on reliability, cost of maintenance, etc. Feel free to check, the issues are available in most credit unions and libraries. Last time I checked, the Fiat was the least reliable car sold in the US.

quote:

Originally posted by SgtGold:

quote:

Originally posted by Silent:
All its electrical components were made by a company named Lucas. Which was British for junk.

Lucas = The Prince of Darkness.

I bought a new '68 Triumph Bonneville with Lucas battery that lasted 10 days. Shorted out. Dealer asked me if I wanted another Lucas battery or a "Jap" battery. He correctly claimed the Yuasa battery was better and it lasted 3 years.

Back then we replaced all Motorcycle Lucas bulbs with BMW/Mercedes/Japanese bulbs for increased life.

quote:

Originally posted by H&K-Guy:

quote:

Originally posted by arfmel:
Canadian women and cars are evil?

I learn something new every day on SigForum.

Well, it was funny when I wrote it, I swear.

H&K-Guy

I don't know about evil, per se. But they are colder.

I think their market segment is oriented towards those who lease, not buy.

Then people who want to drive a "high end European luxury automobile", buy them at a heavily discounted price, outside of a warranty.