I don't know much about them and other than the price for the extra die, is it worth getting the 3 die set vs. the 2? I reload precision rifle rounds on a Dillon 550 press but use it like a single stage press until bullet seating and crimping.

Depends on the cartridge.

I believe the 3 die competition sets are for those who neck size only, in other words, not interested in consistency. They come with a neck sizing die, a body die and a bullet seating die.

The 2 die sets are an F/L resizing die and a bullet seating die.

If you look at page 9 of their catalog, you can see them.

quote:

Originally posted by NikonUser:
I believe the 3 die competition sets are for those who neck size only, in other words, not interested in consistency. They come with a neck sizing die, a body die and a bullet seating die.

The 2 die sets are an F/L resizing die and a bullet seating die.

Fair enough. Followup question: Why would anyone pay more money for more dies to get less consistency and create an extra step?

Because at some point, somebody latched on to the concept of neck sizing as something to do to "reduce wear and tear on the cartridges" and get better fit in the rifle for greater accuracy.

If you say that you get better consistency with a neck die, why do you even need a body die? The answer is simple; the neck die users will resize their cases until they get too big to chamber or extract easily. In other words, they got bigger during the repeated firing. Also, there's going to be one hell of a difference between your last shot before using the body die and the next shot after the body die has reduced the case substantially.

Using an F/L die ensures that the case is always put back to the same volume for every loading. The meme about working the case more because of F/L sizing every time is just that, meme or bunk. You can just imagine the amount of work you put the case through when you use that body die to return that fat piggy back to something smaller.

Cases have 3 main ways in which they expire:

They break about one third of the way up from the base. That's due to a badly set sizing die, you're shrinking the shoulder back too bar and you're creating a headspace issue. Adjust your sizing die properly.

The neck splits. This is due to overuse of a regular die that shrinks the neck too much and the expander ball pops it back on case extraction. You can avoid that by using a bushing die and control your neck tension.

The third way is when the primer pocket enlarges too much and doesn't hold the primer in anymore. I believe you can retard this by using a small base F/L bushing die, but it does not prevent it, only delays it.

Some will say that annealing the cases increases life, I don't believe that; I anneal only to control bullet release. I do know that annealing will help when you are reforming cases from one caliber to another, like making .243 Win from .308 cases. That is not the issue here.

I understand that benchresters neck size only, but those cases and chambers are much closer in tolerances than any factory rifle. My F-TR match rifle is all custom speced and built but I still use a small base F/L sizing die. The die is set to push the shoulder back about .001 from fired. I use my match cases only in that rifle, nowhere else.

Bottom line is simple; if you have to ask whether you should neck size of F/L size, the answer is F/L size only.

Does that make sense to you?

Just as another note. On the line, I know of VERY few people who neck size their cases, certainly none of the top competitors. You can always spot the neck sizer dude, he's to one who needs a mallet to open his bolt, and I am not kidding on that.

My cartridges chamber like butter and I get just the slightest hint of resistance at the end of the stroke to close the bolt. After firing, I open my bolt by the simple expedient of pushing my index finger up against the handle.

My competition load is 3 grains over the max at the Hodgdon website and I get 8 firings from my brass. I recently measured an 8X fired case from the prior batch and it slipped into the case guage with no issues, and it had not even been resized from the last firing.

Thanks NikonUser, that was helpful. I currently use regular Redding dies and am getting ~0.50 MOA with worked up loads/barrel combos. I'm wondering if there's any benefit to upgrading.

Max range I'll be able to fire most of the time is 600 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by Dead_Eye:
Thanks NikonUser, that was helpful. I currently use regular Redding dies and am getting ~0.50 MOA with worked up loads/barrel combos. I'm wondering if there's any benefit to upgrading.

Max range I'll be able to fire most of the time is 600 yards.

Only you can decide is your loading needs an upgrade. I can't tell you that.

I would suggest you read the stickied thread at the top of this forum here. I spent quite a bit of time putting the information together and I keep it up to date as I adjust my loading regimen.

I will tell you that I thought I loaded pretty good ammunition, until I got into F-class competition, especially when they brought in the new mini-targets back in '07. I had to revamp my entire operation. It's all in that thread.

Read that and then we can talk some more. I've put all my knowledge about loading .308 in that thread.

Will do, thanks for your input.

NikonUser-

I just rebuilt a Savage with a Benchmark barrel in 308. Should I use a Redding full-length body only die followed by a Redding S-type bushing die? which bushing would I use? I'm new to loading for bolt actions.

For my M14's I just use an RCBS full length X-die. I'd like to get away from using the expander ball but I'm not sure which approach to take to size the body and neck.

I have lots of commercial Winchester brand 308 brass and lots of LC brass. I also have once-fired FGMM brass.

Tony.

quote:

Originally posted by benny6:
NikonUser-

I just rebuilt a Savage with a Benchmark barrel in 308. Should I use a Redding full-length body only die followed by a Redding S-type bushing die? which bushing would I use? I'm new to loading for bolt actions.

For my M14's I just use an RCBS full length X-die. I'd like to get away from using the expander ball but I'm not sure which approach to take to size the body and neck.

I have lots of commercial Winchester brand 308 brass and lots of LC brass. I also have once-fired FGMM brass.

Tony.

I'm not sure why you would want top use the body die at all. There's no reason to do that as long as your Redding S-type busing die is an F/L die. If it's a neck sizing die only, then I'm not sure what the proper sequence is as I've never really looked into neck sizing.

I load Winchester and Lapua brass for .308. Lapua for match and Winchester for non-match. My bushing for Winchester brass is .331; Winchester brass is thin compared to Lapua.

I have no clue on LC, but you should be able to figure it out quickly. Just take a half-dozen loaded rounds with the same brass with your bullets seated, and then measure the OD right below the mouth on all 6 cartridges. Check it twice. You're going to come up with something like .334 for the Winchester and .33x for the LC. Subtract .002 or .003 for neck tension (I strongly suggest at least .003 for the M14 and maybe .004.

I recently reduce my .308 bushing for the Lapua brass by another .001 for added neck tension (from .002 to .003.) I'm experimenting with additional tension.

FGMM brass is Federal, I have 0 experience with it, but now you know how to measure it.

Thanks! I came up with 0.338" on new LC XM80 ball ammo and 0.338 on new Federal 168gr FGMM ammo. I'll load up some ammo with the Winchester brass and see what it comes up with. Looks like I'll go with a 0.335 and maybe a 0.334 for the M14. My chambers are all pretty tight, so I'll go with the small base die.

I've got all four (soon to be five) of my M14's set to 1.632" so it only made sense that I set my Savage to 1.632" as well.

I've never used Imperial wax, but I'll give it a shot.

Much to learn still.

Tony.

It would not surprise me that LC brass (good brass,) is as thick as Lapua. I know that FGMM is good ammo, just never heard of anyone reloading it.

Thanks for the data points.