Shooting tiny groups is no doubt fun. It takes skill to do so, shows us what are rifles are capable of, how well our loads are tuned.... As a LR steel competitor doesn't matter how tiny that group is if I can't hit the target. Applies to other types of shooting, hunting.... The ability to shoot point of aim, point of impact is where the rubber meets the road. Dot Drills is where it's at for developing the POA/POI skill.

Start with the SH 21 1" shot target. Shoot at just one dot, pick up your rifle, rear bag.... get back into position shoot another, repeat. The key is to completely break your position and re-establish for every shot. Sounds easy! Give it a try, prepared to be humbled!

https://www.snipershide.com/pr...pers-hide-dot-drill/

Some variations. If shooting on natural terrain, set up prone with the bipod 12" or more lower then your toes and the opposite. On a right hand or left hand slope so one leg of the bipod is a fair amount higher. It's even more challenging to maintain proper cheek, shoulder pressure and eye box when not in a comfy flat prone position. Set par times. 30 seconds for the first row, 25 seconds for the 2nd row.... Adjust your bipod at a different hieght for 1-5 dot or each line requiring to use more bag in the rear so your not in a perfect position. Shoot one dot bench next prone.....

Good info.

I have Dot torture targets for pistols.
I'll be printing out some of those for rifles too.

Dot drill will eat your lunch for you. Even with the best equipment and ammo.

It exposed my weaknesses and taught me a lot, helping me to improve.

Don't bring your pride. I thought I was cool, I'm not.

You can do both you know.

When I was probably 19-20 I got real into "precision" rifle shooting. My game was "dot shooting". 5 shot 100 yard groups, completely on the dot. I was all about outside to outside groups, not knowing at the time that's not what everyone else went by. So my "one inch groups" were a good deal less so. lol
At the time I was shooting a heavy barrel .308, so I started with 1" dots. When that got easy keep 5 shots completely on the dot, I moved to 3/4", then to 1/2". (which I don't know that I ever accomplished with any regularity.) I had friends/acquaintances who trying to get me to shoot in one of the IBS classes/divisions, but I was having more fun with my own game and to me it made more sense.

I got bored and eventually sold that rifle. Looking back now I really regret it. Because it must have been an amazingly accurate rifle. I say that because it shot so well in spite of everything I was doing and not doing. All I did was bed it and adjust the factory trigger. Factory BDL stock, cheap Tasco scope, Weaver mounts. And when I think back to what I was doing, or rather NOT doing with my handloading I'm amazed. I gave my handloads less care and attention than I would a hunting load today that I planned to shoot out of an iron sighted rifle. lol Oh to be young and have good eyes and steady hands.

quote:

If shooting on natural terrain, set up prone with the bipod 12" or more lower then your toes and the opposite.

I'm sure the distances I'm shooting at are nothing compared to what you're describing here, but the rifle range at our club kind of rolls, and there are a couple of positions that just naturally force this. It sucks!!!! The human eye...at least my human eye...does not like having to strain upwards to see fine detail at distance. It doesn't help that I wear glasses, either, and if the angle gets too steep I'm looking over the tops of them.

Recoil sucks, too, if you're shooting anything bigger than .223, because you can't get in-line behind the rifle and establish a proper shoulder weld.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:

quote:

If shooting on natural terrain, set up prone with the bipod 12" or more lower then your toes and the opposite.

I'm sure the distances I'm shooting at are nothing compared to what you're describing here, but the rifle range at our club kind of rolls, and there are a couple of positions that just naturally force this. It sucks!!!! The human eye...at least my human eye...does not like having to strain upwards to see fine detail at distance. It doesn't help that I wear glasses, either, and if the angle gets too steep I'm looking over the tops of them.

Recoil sucks, too, if you're shooting anything bigger than .223, because you can't get in-line behind the rifle and establish a proper shoulder weld.

Centerfire bolt or semi 100yds, 22LR 50yds. Takes wind out the equation unless one lives in Medicine Bow Wyoming!

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
the rifle range at our club kind of rolls, and there are a couple of positions that just naturally force this. It sucks!!!! The human eye...at least my human eye...does not like having to strain upwards to see fine detail at distance. It doesn't help that I wear glasses, either, and if the angle gets too steep I'm looking over the tops of them.

Offgrid and I have shot in two regional recurring steel matches where certain stages/targets required substantial up angles.
- A winter match at the town of Rifle, in western Colorado. We shot prone from the flats, but the farthest targets were high on the side of a steep mountain.
- A summer match a bit south of Douglas, Wyoming. Some up slight up angles to the longer targets, but the biggest issue was downward sloping shooting positions.
These were fun matches and we had a fair number of front-range folks attending.

We found that on certain days, many of our misses were high. The initial thoughts were dope problems at distance, either due to Density Altitude or MV issues. Once these were eliminated, we often settled on eyebox problems and parallax. This was caused by having our bipods as high as their legs could be extended and we were smooshing our smallest rear bags to almost nothing. Tough shooting positions.

Fast forward a year or two, and I carpooled and shot matches with another Denver local. He's a good shooter, and we often talked technique on the road trips. He noticed my misses on some days tended to be high, especially on up-angle shots. Watching my technique, he felt I was placing too much pressure on my rear bag, while trying to attain adequate elevation for the target. Voila!

Everyone has their own technique challenges, and mine is often having too firm of a cheek weld. This drives my rear bag down when I break the shot, sending the bullet high. When I'm having a total sheep dip day, this is made worse by relaxing my squeeze on the rear bag at the same time. So...my fixes:
- I have full and half-length extensions for my Atlas bipod legs. Buying a bipod with longer legs from the get go is also an option.
- I installed 10-12 inch long ARCA rails on my precision bolt rifles. This allows the bipod to be slid to the rear, and thus increasing elevation without requiring me to scrunch down on my rear bag.
- I slightly increased the distance between centerline of scope and top of cheek rest. I now have noticeably lighter pressure in my cheek weld.
- I use a little larger and firmer rear bag, with heavier fill beads.

My downward cheek pressure also affected AR15s. I installed a Mapul UBR stock on my primary AR15 lower. I saw a tendency for high misses in steel matches, especially from compromised positions. Finally realized I was putting a lot of cheek weld pressure on the UBR to get in good eyebox position. Ditched the UBR for an STR stock, and my vertical dispersion issues were largely eliminated.

Dot drills can tell you a lot. If you're having consistent issues with shot dispersion, be sure to break shooting position between shots. Then play with options, and maybe have a good shooter watch your shooting practices.

Thanks for all that, fritz. I believe that some of what you discussed pertains to problems I’ve experienced.
Now if I can only remember them when actually shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by Slippery Pete:
Dot drill will eat your lunch for you. Even with the best equipment and ammo.

It exposed my weaknesses and taught me a lot, helping me to improve.

Don't bring your pride. I thought I was cool, I'm not.

Local monthly steel match I've shot many times has a semi and bolt division. We can shoot both divisions, pay a 2nd small match fee. Over a winter I put together a nice AR, my first of this kind. More trigger time, more fun. Compass LAke chambered 20" Bartlien barrel, bare barrel no brake or suppressor, Magpul PRS adjustable rear stock, Geissele Match/Match two stage trigger very similar to the two stage trigger I have on the bolt rifles... Worked up a load, shot great. By this time I scratched my way to placing well in this match, won a few The AR is just another rifle with a scope, adjustable stock, familiar nice trigger, got a good load, cycled very well. I should be able to shoot it as well as my bolt rifles. Ya, right! Not so cool! I don't know how many 20 shot 1' dot drills I did before I finally cleaned one, it was many. Pulled the barrel at about 4K rounds, guessing 1K+ of that was dot drills. Dot drill taught me the difference between shooting a bolt rifle and a AR. AR's are much harder to shoot POA/POI consistently.

done it with some target small bore rifles at 50yrds

couple of dots to get the scope or irons right,,
then rolled thru,

first row or went well, then got cocky and started to mess up,

teaches you to pay attention to every dot, every time

Likely the best I've ever done with a dot drill was at a Rifles Only 5-day course that was held in Colorado in July a few years ago. Final day of the course, a bit humid, no wind, temps of 90+, I shot a 6.5 Creedmoor bolt action. We had 20 one-inch solid black dots at 100 yards.

The instructor gave us 10 minutes to shoot the drill. This was essentially our "graduation test", and he wanted us to put in our best effort. He preferred that we did something different, but it was our choice. Some students elected to shoot prone, others from barriers, one shot from a tripod.

I placed a box of ammo about 50 yards back from the shooting line. I ran back and forth to the box for one round at a time, then shot from prone. I soon became a sweaty mess. My chest was heaving and my glasses sometimes fogged up. I hit 17 of 17 when time ran out. Many were solid center hits, but one was just the bare minimum edge hit. Jacob Bynum asked if I wanted to try the final three rounds. I said no, stating that I did my best in the allowed time. He said fair enough, and the course was over.

On any given day, shooting cold, I'd have real trouble successfully repeating those results.

One interesting DOT drill I picked up at a sniper school years ago was to take all the time you want to shoot a 5 rd group at 100 yards. Next you shoot a DOT with 20 sec. then 15 sec, then 10 sec, and then 5 sec. What was really interesting is that your best group was seldom the group that you had all the time you needed. I found that 10-15 sec gave me my best groups. I kept utilizing that drill through out my career. I found it gave snipers confidence that shooting under a time crunch can be your friend.

quote:

Originally posted by ksss:
Next you shoot a DOT with 20 sec. then 15 sec, then 10 sec, and then 5 sec.

I am curious about this, but I’m not sure I understand this part of the course. How many shots do you fire at a dot within the time allowed? Another five each?

Yes, sorry that wasn't clear. Five rounds on each dot. We have done it with three round groups as well, but five seemed more telling.

Okay, thanks.
Seems like a good variation.