I will say first that I know this is one of those things where you can spend eye-watering amounts of money, and that isn't my goal. Every thread like this, the first questions are "what is your purpose" and "what kind of accuracy do you want out of it," so I'll try to address those.

My purpose is mainly just for the giggles. I want to be able to hit a 12x20" steel silhouette at ranges where I can't easily make it out with the naked eye. I know an AR is the choice for everything out to about 600 yards, and I want to push myself past that if I can, and I want a bolt action rifle for this. I have access to a range with steels at 200, 300, 400, 500, and 700 yards all from one position. I can get out a lot further than that on BLM land, and I want to. I don't want to put a cap on it, but let's say I want a rifle that's mechanically capable of putting rounds on that same 12x20" silhouette pretty consistently at a thousand yards. I'm not seeking to shoot golf ball-sized groups at that distance.

I know the standard answer used to be a Remington 700 BDL in .308 with I don't know what for a barrel and glass bedded in a fiberglass stock. I'm sure some of that has changed. I have a friend who'll give me an HS Precision tactical stock he bought for a build he didn't end up doing. It's for a short action 700. I know guys are moving away from the .308 to the 6.5 Creedmoor, and I'm open to either. I have a thousand rounds or so of Federal Eagle .308, so it's not match ammo, but something decent to get started with. I have my father's 70's era Rock Chucker Supreme setup waiting for me in a cabinet in New York, so hopefully I'll be up and running with basic reloading stuff before the end of the year. That stockpile of ammo plus the reloading gear wouldn't be a horrible situation and does make an argument for at least starting off in .308 with the option to later rebarrel in 6.5. I do want this rifle to be suppressed. If I go with a 6.5, I have that covered. If I go with .308, I'll have to buy another can and I'm ok with that.

I guess what I'm asking is, caliber aside, is piecing a 700 together on a budget still viable, or does it just make more sense to get a Savage or Ruger of some flavor and go from there?

Glass is... a whole other can of worms, but I have a 3-10 Weaver with LOW glass that's surprisingly clear I can put on it to get up and running. I know, I know, you're supposed to spend two or ten times on the scope what you spend on the rifle and all that jazz. We'll get there.

Buy a Seekins Havak HIT or MPA PMR, add glass. Done.

Of possible interest.
https://sigforum.com/eve/forum...0601935/m/7470031074

Do you have a budget?
That will aid a response on your possibilities.

Before you lay down some big cash, take a long-range shooting class that provides the guns, optics and ammo. Learn first. Talk to the instructors.

quote:

Originally posted by 229DAK:
Before you lay down some big cash, take a long-range shooting class that provides the guns, optics and ammo. Learn first. Talk to the instructors.

This.

I strongly recommend taking this class if possible. Or something similar from another instructor.
https://www.libertysafe.com/bl...-long-range-shooting

At the ranges you say you have to shoot at I would not trade a 6.5 Creedmoor for a 308, there is very little difference in bullet trajectory between the two.
If I wanted a serious cartridge to go beyond 700 yards I would not look at either 6.5 or 308, maybe a 7mm.
To give the longer range shooting a try I would begin by not trying to build your own rifle, I would go buy a Savage. I saw a YouTube the other day that featured the cheapest Savage that came with a scope at a cost of about $400 total. The gun was constantly shooting 1/2" groups at 100 yards with factory Remington ammo. You could spend 10X that amount on a custom rifle and not do any better.

quote:

Originally posted by JoshNC:
Buy a Seekins Havak HIT or MPA PMR, add glass. Done.

Solid suggestion.

OP, if you can swing it, I would love to suggest the ARC Nucleus rifle* in 6.5 Creedmoor. It's about $2600. I can't assemble the parts in the gun (Nucleus action, 25" Criterion barrel, Triggertech Diamond trigger, ARC XYLO chassis) for anywhere near what they're asking for the assembled rifle.

I have another Nucleus build in 6mm GT and while it's at least as impressive as my Creed in build quality it cost at least double what I paid for the Creed. Had I been smart I would have just ordered a second complete rifle and swapped out the barrel. Could have saved a few grand easily even after sending it to the gunsmith.

*ARC sells actions, but they also make/sell a production rifle because they want to get those sweet, sweet PRS Production Class sales.

ETA: Armored is right. Inexpensive production gun will do just fine to learn on.

quote:

Originally posted by 229DAK:
Before you lay down some big cash, take a long-range shooting class that provides the guns, optics and ammo. Learn first. Talk to the instructors.

This... probably is the correct course of action at this point. I did some looking and didn't find anything local as far as courses, but I did find a local long range shooting club. Maybe at the very least, I need to go spectate one of these events and see if I can chat with some of the guys there and see what they have to say to a beginner. I didn't know Ben Avery has a 1,000 yard range, that's very handy.

https://www.desertsharpshooters.com/home

quote:

Originally posted by sgalczyn:
Do you have a budget?
That will aid a response on your possibilities.

That's the other thing. I know the smart move is to probably just buy once, cry once. I'm dense and stubborn and try to do things on the cheap. Turd polishing amuses me and gives me more enjoyment than pulling a trigger, if I'm being entirely honest. Probably best to put that impulse aside for this pursuit.

I worked at Berger/Lapua briefly when I moved here. I spent a bit of time talking shop with one of the guys on the floor who has been making bullets for a few decades now. When I asked him about getting into long range shooting, he said if it were him, he would pick a Tikka model in 6.5 Creedmoor. I can't remember what he said about scopes, if anything. On that note, thanks for the link to your thread about your Tikkas, Sigfreund. That looks like a satisfyingly dense read.

I agree with taking a training class first.

Here’s what I did. Bought a Tikka CTR .308 from Eurooptic. Then put it in a KRG Bravo stock. Added a decent scope and an Atlas bipod. I got the Bravo that accepts AICS magazines, and ordered a couple of mags when I ordered the stock. I was done, and had a great shooting rifle.

I’ve since picked up a 6.5 Creedmoor, and am happy as a pig in the mud. You could put one together like this, or just get a Seekins rifle already built. Either way, it won’t break the bank.

Smudge -- Many things to consider here. There are few absolutes in long distance rifle work. But I will state that there are going with a Tikka in 6.5CM is a reasonable way to dive in. One could make much, much worse decisions.

*****
Ballistics is an important part of LR shooting. You discuss steel targets. I will compare some caliber considerations on a 12" square plate at 600 yards, using Muzzle Velocity data from my own rifles, with air density altitude of 2,000 feet, with JBM ballistics data in MOA. Most of us experience wind when shooting outdoors. Therefore a given load's forgiveness for misjudging a wind speed estimate, but still hitting the target is an important consideration. Sometimes we don't have the correct target distances. Some loads fly flatter than others, allowing for more error in distance measurement, but still hitting the target.

223 Remington, Hornady 75 Black, 2800 fps MV
14.7 MOA elevation, with 6.1 MOA wind drift for 10 mph crosswind from 3 or 9 o'clock
Aiming for the center of the plate, if the target is between 586 and 613 yards, the bullet will hit. This is a 27 yard distance window.
Wind must be estimated within 3.1 mph for a hit.

308 Winchester, Federal GMM 175, 2700 fps MV
13.9 MOA elevation, with 4.5 MOA wind drift
Target hit if between 584 and 615 yards. A 31 yard distance window.
Wind must be estimated within 4.2 mph for a hit.

6.5 Creedmoor, Hornady 140 ELDM, 2820 fps MV
11.7 MOA elevation, with 3.3 MOA wind drift
Target hit if between 581 and 618 yards. A 37 yard distance window.
Wind must be estimated within 5.7 mph for a hit.

6 Creedmoor, Hornady 108 ELDM, 2900 fps MV
11.2 MOA elevation, with 3.6 MOA wind drift
Target hit if between 581 and 618 yards. A 37 yard distance window.
Wind must be estimated within 5.2 mph for a hit.

For those who haven't competed in steel matches, the above ballistics data might produce an extended yawn. But in the field, this data shows significant differences between the calibers, at moderate distances. The wind call data is a huge factor here -- it often makes or breaks a person's ability to hit targets.

More to come....

That's informative stuff, fritz. Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
But I will state that there are going with a Tikka in 6.5CM is a reasonable way to dive in. One could make much, much worse decisions.

This is actually pretty reassuring, thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
For those who haven't competed in steel matches, the above ballistics data might produce an extended yawn.

No yawning here, it's really interesting data. I'm a visual thinker and trying to parse the info. If I'm reading it right, it shows the Creedmoor loadings to be much more forgiving of both range estimation and wind calls than the other two, yes?

Confession time: In an early draft of my original post, I had mentioned and then trimmed for brevity that my first actual known shooting past a hundred yards or so was actually two weeks ago. I zeroed my 11.5 at the range for a night shoot and decided to engage some steel targets they had set up at 300 yards. With an Eotech, once I figured out my hold, I was reliably ringing the gong. I wound up shooting most of the ammo I brought with me on that gong. I knew on the spot I was bit by the long range bug. I know 300 yards isn't "long range" to probably anyone reading this thread, but it is to me, and I want to take that and run with it.

I learned to shoot on a small variety of firearms, but my first rifle was a heavy barrel Winchester Model 52 with Lyman globe sights. I don't know how many thousands of rounds I put through it, but it was every day for years. Shooting for groups at a hundred yards plus with that rifle as a young man taught me a lot about the fundamentals of rifle marksmanship. Wind drift and drop with a .22lr are very real things, especially when sniping woodchucks off the front porch. I think a guy could do worse. I have it in the safe now. I haven't shot it since I brought it home last year following my father's passing. He lost the rear sight aperture disc and I need to replace it and take it to the range. Should actually take some pics and post a thread about that one.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
More to come....

Looking forward to it, thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
I know an AR is the choice for everything out to about 600 yards...

Well, that's news to me.
There are some folks who can repeatably shoot an AR15 with great accuracy, especially at hundreds of yards. In my experience, the majority of folks cannot. There are ongoing statements of a shooter's amazing AR15:
- It's a tack driver.
- It shoots sub-MOA all day long. Sometimes followed by "when I do my part".
- Here's a 5-round group that shows how well it shoots, and eliminating the 2 called flyers, it's MOA.
Pictures of groups at distances beyond 100 yards? You gots ta be kidding.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
....but let's say I want a rifle that's mechanically capable of putting rounds on that same 12x20" silhouette pretty consistently at a thousand yards. I'm not seeking to shoot golf ball-sized groups at that distance.

That's a 1.2 MOA wide target at 1000 yards. That's a tall order. In my experience, the majority of shooters can't consistently shoot 1.2 MOA at 100 yards. At my altitude with my 6.5CM I must correctly call crosswinds within 1.9 mph for that shot at 1000. 1.9 mph is a challenging estimation right where I'm shooting, let alone averaging the wind speeds out to 1000 yards, for the 1.4 seconds of bullet flight time to the target.

For a number of years there was an NRL steel match near the town of Craig, CO. IIRC one stage had four 12" square plates at distance of just under 1000 yards. 10 rounds total for the stage, time limit of either 90 or 120 seconds. Start with the left-most target. As targets are hit move to the next one on the right, and so on. If you make it to the 4th target on the right, starting moving back left. The first target on the left had bushes/trees behind it, so it was difficult to see where the bullet landed on a miss. I've seen a number shooters who never made it past the first target. My typical score was 4 or 5 on this stage, with maybe a high score of 6. First time at the match, on a day with difficult winds, I might have scored a 2. IIRC the match's highest ever score on the stage was 8 -- most likely from the outstanding shooter Jake Vibbert. Shooters like Jake Vibbert are quite rare.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
I'm a visual thinker and trying to parse the info. If I'm reading it right, it shows the Creedmoor loadings to be much more forgiving of both range estimation and wind calls than the other two, yes?

Yes, the Creedmoor is more forgiving than 223 or 308.

In some types of rifle competitions, there is a separate division for 308 rifles. It's because for shooters of similar capabilities, a 308 cannot reasonably compete with the 6.5mm and 6mm bores. Much of this is bullet wind drift. But in steel matches where marginally-stable shooting positions occur, recoil also comes into play. Based on webz-based recoil charts, typical load recoils are:
3-4 foot pounds for 223 Remy
9-10 foot pounds for 6 CM
12-13 foot pounds for 6.5 CM
17-18 foot pounds for 308 Win

Lower recoil makes it easier to keep our reticles EXACTLY on target throughout the recoil cycle. This means we can spot our own bullet impacts, whether they be hits or misses. Then correct (if necessary) for subsequent shots. Many people think they saw the hit, because they saw the place where the dirt plume occurred. That's not seeing the impact, that's seeing the results of the impact after it occurs. Maybe only .5 to 1 second after, but still after. Seeing the impact means that one watches the bullet impact the steel/dirt, then watches the splash subsequent to the impact. Those who haven't actually experienced this scenario with their own eyes often call bullshit. But it's real, for those who have developed the necessary shooting fundamentals.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
Well, that's news to me.

That's fair. It's something I hear and read a lot, that for anything 500 yards and in, all you need is an AR. Like I say, 300 yards is my limit so far.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
That's a tall order.

Well, file that one under "I don't know what I don't know" and amend it to "capable of connecting at a thousand yards, given the right conditions." I don't know exactly what I'm asking for, but it could be summed up as simply as wanting to shoot at ranges far beyond what I've attempted just to see what I can pull off. If it ends up that my comfortable cap for shots is 500ish yards, then that's still better than I'm currently capable of, if that makes sense. I also understand that a thousand yards at all is a tall order, and a shot most shooters probably can't make. It may be that I'm one of them, but I want to find out.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
Those who haven't actually experienced this scenario with their own eyes often call bullshit.

No, I believe it. When I was shooting a lot in my highschool and college years, I got to a place where I could watch the bullet travel a fair bit with certain firearms. I don't think I ever got to that place with the centerfire rifles I was shooting at the time, but .22's, handguns, and shotgun slugs, it wasn't uncommon. Not every round, but more often than not when I was really putting the work in. It's been a while since I've done that much shooting that this is the case, but I could see that being a thing with bullet impacts at range under recoil.

The lower recoil numbers are pretty appealing. I've had a number of serious health issues in recent years that I'm still in the process of sorting out, and the effects of two of them are catabolism and wasting muscle mass, so absorbing recoil has become very difficult. I haven't shot a .308 or even my .30-06's in years, so I'm not even sure I could actually even handle a .308 right now. A 6.5 Creedmoor may even be a tall order, I don't know. That's a consideration I hadn't factored into this.

Smudge…email sent

Smudge I know you are a reader/researcher so head on over to the precision rifle blog and study the what the pros use section. will give you the basics of what really works in real life.
Then in my own way of suggesting practical workable solutions that I know personally work and that can get you started quickly with zero risk and not too expensive while you learn what matters to you from practical experience just get a Tikka T3xA1 in 6.5CM. The best glass you can afford (I use a NF 7-35 but I have a thing for NF scopes, if not I would just get the leupold or the vortex this investment will last across several gun upgrades). A thunderbeast suppressor and buy some decent factory match ammo and go shoot, go to matches, go to classes and go shoot some more.
If in the end recoil is a blocking factor then you will have to work on finding something in one of the other 6mm like dasher and a rifle to shoot it likely near custom and loading yourself.

Smudge, I took a similar journey in 2016, and enjoyed the process. I just wanted to hit steel at 1000 yards consistently, and to self-learn the process of getting there (well, with internet help). Gun, ammo, scope, shooter are all a system to get there, is my impression from the experience.

I ended up with a Savage 10 in 6.5 CM, Hornady ELD 140 gr match, Bushnell MRAD FFP scope, and prone position with rear bag and bipod.

Got data from internet about trajectory to learn clicks up at each distance, in 100 yard increments, out to 1000, went to Gadsden Shooting Center in central MO alone and walked it out (after sight in and some practice to dial in the shooter).

That was a fun time. I no longer do that but did enjoy the journey (more into Bill drills etc). Hope this helps in some small way. Much more expertise above my comment here, obviously.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
The lower recoil numbers are pretty appealing.
A 6.5 Creedmoor may even be a tall order, I don't know. That's a consideration I hadn't factored into this.

Definitely a consideration. For a longer day of shooting, I find a noticeable difference in recoil among 308, 6.5CM, and 6CM. A few rounds here and there -- not a big deal. But on a match or training day of 100+ rounds, higher recoil adds up.

If you're willing to reload, there are 6mm chamberings which perform really well in steel-type shooting, but have noticeably lower recoil. 6BR is ludicrously accurate, with recoil in the 6-7 foot pounds ballpark. With the heavy rifles that many PRS shooters use, it feels like a 223. Some PRS competitors prefer a little more MV, using chamberings based on the 6BR case. 6 Dasher, 6 BRA, 6 GT -- all are great chamberings, low recoil (maybe 7-8 foot pounds), outstanding accuracy. Understand that these cartridges are shorter than 308/6.5CM/6CM, and thus a spacer in the back of the magazine is almost always required to promote reliable feeding. 6BR loads are commercially available from Lapua, but they are expensive. 6GT ammo is more reasonably priced, but it doesn't seem to be available all the time. If 6GT ammo ever becomes more mainstream, I would seriously consider dumping 308 once I've used up my 308 ammo inventory, and going forward with 6GT barrel on my (currently) 308 bolt action.

I highly recommend your hanging around precision shooters, and ask if you can shoot a few rounds from a 6BR - 6Dasher - 6BRA - 6GT. State that you will even pay them for the ammo.

*****
For high-volume shooters, the barrel life of the chambering options is a consideration. Lower volume shooters -- especially those with less stringent accuracy demands -- poo-poo such considerations. Basically because they will never wear our a barrel in their lifetime, and they have no need for consistent sub-MOA accuracy at many hundreds of yards. Let's start with a 308 stainless or cro-moly steel, not chrome lined and not melonite treated. It's my understanding the F-Class guys might retire 308 barrels around 5k rounds. Understand that they are pushing some hot loads, often approaching 300WM velocities. A PRS-type shooter might get 6k to 7k rounds from a 308 barrel before retirement -- meaning it can no longer shoot sub-MOA. MV will have decreased, and generally some lower-than-normal impacts are occurring. Now some shooters might just happy as a clam in muck with said retired barrels, as they might still be able to shoot 1.5 MOA on a regular basis, maybe 2 MOA on a bad day.

When we use the roughly same amount of powder in a 308 case, then neck it down to a smaller bore, barrel life decreases noticeably. Staying with these same sub-MOA out to hundreds of yards requirements, the barrel life of a 6.5CM (or similar 260 Remington or 6.5x45 Lapua) is likely 50-60% of a 308 -- maybe 3k to 4k rounds. Go with a 6CM (or similar 243 Winchester or 6x47 Lapua) and barrel life might be around 1600 to 2000 rounds. The 6 Dasher & 6BR have smaller cases, and their life might be 2500 or so. The 6BR case is even smaller, so 3k rounds are quite possible. Understand that this is for PRS-match shooting, where 10-12 rounds are consistently shot in a short time frame. The barrels get hot, and often stay hot throughout a match. For the person who never lets their barrel get hot, barrel life will be longer.

But honestly, retiring barrels isn't a big deal. I've done it 4 times, with 2 more getting close. I have a buddies who have gone through at least a dozen barrels. I've shot with guys who have switched out dozens and dozens of barrels.

A stainless barrel holds its velocity & accuracy up to almost the end of its useful life, then deterioration occurs rapidly -- sometimes during one day's shooting. Cro-moly barrels start to lose their accuracy & MV a little earlier, with a more gradual deterioration. Both barrel types work well. Most competitors go with SS.

Chrome lining increases barrel life, because the chrome reduces throat wear. Once the chrome lining begins to chip off, accuracy can go way out the door -- possibly more noticeable than when a SS barrel goes south. It is difficult to produce a consistent chrome lining throughout the bore of the barrel, therefore chrome lined barrels tend to be noticeably less accurate than SS barrels.

It was thought that melonite treatment would increase barrel life without negatively affecting accuracy. If this were true, the bench rest and F-Class competitors would be all over melonite barrels like white on rice. They aren't.