Hello!

Met with a buddy of mine to shoot his new 300 blackout today. It was a balmy 20 degrees here in Wyoming, but that didn’t slow us down! It is an upper he got from PSA for $190 a month or so ago. This was my first time with this caliber. Overall I was very impressed! Between that and his Saiga AK I see new toys in the future ....

Inside of 400 yards, is there anything the 300 blackout lacks or can’t do for the average citizen?

Thank you!

Jim

At 400 I bet the trajectory resembles a sand wedge

There are many variables to consider when answering that question such as specific load, barrel length, atmospheric conditions, and target characteristics.

I recently worked up a ballistics table for the Sellier & Bellot 124 grain FMJ (supersonic) load as fired from a 9 inch barrel with an estimated muzzle velocity of 1920 fps under “standard” atmospheric conditions.

Between 350 and 400 yards the bullet drops about 6 inches for every 10 yards of forward travel. That means if we were shooting at the center of a target 18 inches high (e.g., a human torso), underestimating the range by 20 yards would result in a complete miss. Our sight setting would also have to be very precise and accurate.

Different loads and barrel lengths would lessen the likelihood of a miss by incorrect range estimation, but the 300 Blackout round is really not well suited for shooting at longer distances like that.

For a shooter hold overs are simply something that has to be learned. Not feared or shied away from.
Flatter is easier, there’s no argument on that.
Doesn’t mean you can’t push the 300blk out to that range.
That said & given my personal collection that includes three .300BKL ARs, I have better options for those ranges and the .300 while I love that round, would not be my first choice.

For me my two 10.5” 300s are PD guns 0-100yrds
My 16” 300blk is a 0-200yrd Rifle .
Beyond that I’d go to my safe & chose something else I already have.

But on a budget yes if you put in the work you can learn the ballistics & trajectories and get solid hits at that range with the right ammunition.


Happy hunting !!

My hog gun



PD pistols

Do you intend to shoot paper or game animals? While it is possible to hit 12" targets with 300BLK at 400 yards, I recommend you investigate the impact energy of the round at the range you're shooting before hunting with it, especially beyond 200 yards.

I'm in the same boat as GB: I limit my 8.5" barrels to 100 yards or less. My 16" barrel I play with out to 200 yards. And it doesn't matter what bullet weight I'm shooting, those are the parameters I stick with. Beyond 200 yards? I use a better-suited rifle in .308 or other standard rifle calibers normally associated with longer range shooting.

I loaded up some 145 grain tracers to get a visual of a supers load. Out to 500 yds the arc of trajectory was enlightening and entertaining. On a cloudy day with snow on the ground, we could confirm our dope card was pretty accurate. Things get really interesting when lobbing high BC heavy sub sonic bullets. Certainly .308 or others are better suited to engaging game or miscreants at longer ranges, but some things can just be fun and entertaining. I think old Daniel Boone would like the little .30 caliber.

I have a 300blk upper with an 11" Wilson barrel. As much as I've tried to push its accuracy and distance capabilities, it remains a short-distance setup. The additional muzzle velocity provided from an 18" barrel would noticeably improve the round's ballistics.

I do admit that from a short barrel, the blackout performs pretty well. But as distance grows the ballistics challenges increase as a result of relatively slow muzzle velocity and poor ballistics from light-weight .30 caliber bullets. So...the blackout chamber isn't the best paper puncher or steel ringer.

From a hunting or HD standpoint, a big issue is that many light .308 bullets to not expand/tumble/fragment well at blackout speeds. Many FMJ bullets become ice picks and HPBT bullets barely deform. But the 110/120 Barnes copper bullets open up nicely at the tip and the 110 Hornady Vmax expands well.

I've slung a fair amount of rounds at steel at distances of 250, 370, and 445 yards. The most accurate round for me is Aussie Outback's 125 SMK round -- it's the only round that is consistently 1 MOA or less from 50 to 445 yards. Barnes 100 Vortex is quite accurate, and I think it would serve as a nice hunting round. Sig Sauer's 125 HPBT is accurate, BUT.... it pops primers like 10-year-old in a candy store. I've had so many primers jammed in the chamber that I'll never buy Sig ammo again.

Hornady 110 Vmax is pretty accurate....except that roughly 1 of 10 rounds has a WTF flyer -- could be low, could be high. But the bullet seems to expand nicely and penetrate well, so it could be a HD round for me.

Subsonic ammo flies like crap in my upper. I had initial hope for Hornady 208 Amax and 190 Sub-X, but both of them have noticeable vertical stringing at even 50 yards. At 100 yards the patterns (NOT groups) show almost total vertical variation. For grins I shot my last 10 208 AMax rounds at a 12" plate at 250 yards, in calm conditions. It took a boat of dialed elevation to get to 250 yards. Out of 10 shots, I landed only 2 hits. Tons of vertical and horizontal variation. One impact was nose in, the other was a nice keyholed sideways impact. I think I have the picture somewhere on my phone.

I my 11" upper, a few rounds are flying at Mach 1.25 at 500 yards, but for many this transonic velocity occurs at 400 to 450 yards. For most bullets, transonic velocity means the bullet is "done" -- limited accuracy both vertically and horizontally. So yeah, the blackout can make it to 400 yards, but it's wheezing by then. I agree with some of the above posters, who state that even supersonic rounds are done by 200-250 yards.

This doesn't mean that the 300blk shouldn't be shot beyond 200 or 250 yards, but that other AR-15 calibers do it a whole lot better.

quote:

Originally posted by smithnsig:
At 400 I bet the trajectory resembles a sand wedge

With supersonic ammo it is similar to a 30-30.

quote:

Originally posted by IndianaBoy:

quote:

Originally posted by smithnsig:
At 400 I bet the trajectory resembles a sand wedge

With supersonic ammo it is similar to a 30-30.

So....maybe like a 7-iron.

Thanks for your comments, fritz, about the ammunition—as always.

There are certain cartridges that achieve almost mythical status because of their usefulness for certain roles that may not have been filled as well before they came along (or were discovered, anyway). The 300 Blackout started life as the 300 Whisper and was reportedly developed to serve a limited purpose: driving heavy bullets accurately at subsonic velocities for use in suppressed guns. It also benefited from the fact that the cartridges could be loaded in standard AR-15/M16 magazines and fired from those rifles with the proper barrel.

Shooters found, however, that the round offered other advantages if loaded with lighter bullets driven at supersonic velocities. The 300 BLK delivers almost as much energy at close ranges when fired from 9-10 inch barrels as 223/5.56 loads fired from 16 inch barrels. And not only is the energy nearly the same, it does that with larger diameter, much heavier bullets. The 300 is more effective at close ranges from short barrels, but it also avoids the ferocious muzzle blast of the 223/5.56 fired from SBRs. And as originally developed, it does well with heavy bullets at subsonic velocities from suppressed guns (if we find the right load).

None of that, however, makes the 300 Blackout well suited for other roles better filled by other cartridges. If it’s absolutely necessary to have a short barrel rifle (or pistol) that will deliver nearly as much energy at close ranges as the 223/5.56 cartridge will with a carbine barrel, then it’s excellent. If, for example, we want to hunt medium game like big hogs at long ranges, though, there are countless other cartridges that will do a better job. Yes, if we know the 300’s trajectory exactly, our sight is regulated just right, we make no errors in range determination, and we hit the target in the perfect spot, then the cartridge can be used effectively. If the answer to any of those questions is no, however, then it’s not so good.

I’m not knocking either the cartridge itself or the guns that it’s commonly chambered in. I have two 300 Blackout guns myself, including the MCX I reviewed just recently. I do not, however, credit either the guns or the cartridge with performance capabilities they really don’t have.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: sigfreund,

I just bought a Springfield Armory Saint in 300BLK two weeks ago. This is my first time with this cartridge and I can’t wait to get some rounds down range with it.

I have an 8.5" and 10.3" 300Blk, both AR pistols.

I've shot the 10.3" at 300 yards on a bowling pin and got abot 50% hits out of 60 rds, with 147gr FMJs @ 1675fps. I have a Trijicon Reflex II w/ 12.5MOA triangle and it makes hitting very easy, even with no magnification.

There is a great thread at another forum, which is 300 Blackout specific, which indicates the limits of expansion velocities for many typical/suitable 300 Blkout bullets. If you google well, you can find it.

Based on information there, I've settled on the 115gr Lehigh Controlled Chaos Copper, which should expand out to 300 in my 10" and 250 in my 8". That will address any medium-game hunting I'd use it on.

If merely poking a hole in a target is all you need (such as varmint hunting), you could engage further...

My primary HD SBR is a 8.25” BLK, suppressed. I used the same rifle 3 years ago to take a 9 pt at 125 yards with 110 grain TAC TX.

However, I’m working towards changing over to 6.5 Grendel as I believe it to be more versatile in every respect.

I used a 12.5” Grendel to deer hunt this year, bagging a good sized 8pt, and felt very confident with its performance, maintaining over 1k ftlbs of energy out to 250 yds with my hunting load...can’t say that for BLK in similar barrel lengths.


I plan to build a 10.5” or 11” Grendel SBR shortly to take over suppressed HD.


Additionally, cheap steel case allows one to practice much more than the 50 cent BLK range ammo.

I switched over to a Glock pattern AR pistol to shoot subsonic suppressed instead of more expensive subsonic BLK.

I plan to keep the 8.25 BLK SBR but will only use it for suppressed HD.


Totally my objective opinion but, having travelled the BLK to Grendel road, I feel it’s a more capable round, outside of subsonics.

ETA: PSA has Grendel pistol uppers, too!

Never thought I needed to go beyond the 223/5.56 AR, but just ordered an 18” complete Grendel upper from PSA.

I did a bunch of looking around, reviews average rather well. Don’t have it yet but looking forward to trying it out. I have a few ARs with nice triggers, great candidates for the 6.5 upper.

For your viewing pleasure and to add to your general fund of knowledge.


Let the argument ensue....


https://youtu.be/tgKjbySsAik



.

I’m thinking of replacing a suppressed 9mm SBR with a Blackout pistol for an HD weapon. I don’t want to build it myself, so what would be a good way to go? Suggested barrel length and manufacturer?

quote:

Originally posted by GrumpyBiker:
Let the argument ensue....

There's a bunch of "interesting" stats thrown out in that video. Some of those stats don't add up at all to my real world documentation of 223 versus 300.

I suspect he is comparing a high-end, mid-weight blackout bullet (i.e. 110 to 125 grains, expensive, built for accuracy) to a 55 grain FMJ bullet. The same thing was done in AAC's early comparisons of 300 to 223. It's a good marketing plan for people who take numbers thrown at them as fact, without understand the underlying assumptions.

When I compare the best match bullet in my blackout (SMK 125 Aussie Outback) to a quality 223 bullet (pick one -- 69 SMK, 73 ELD, 75 HPBT, 77 SMK), the blackout doesn't shine so much.

Funny thing, nobody compares a 123 Magtech or 150 American Eagle to 55-grain ball ammo.

Funny thing, nobody compares a Barnes 110 load in blackout to a Barnes 70 grain load in 223.

Twice he states that 300blk has 17% more muzzle energy than 7.62x39. Riiiigggghhht. Compare similar loads from the same companies and we find that the AK47 round generally has 5-10% more ME than the blackout. This is kinda determined by the physics of the AK case having more powder capacity.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
Funny thing ....

That was my reaction to the video.

The narrator makes some valid points, some of which I recognized myself and are why I have two guns chambered for the cartridge.

Others, however …, are not things I’d roll over and accept without further research. The one thing that struck me was his casual dismissal of the long range trajectories of the 300 BLK versus the 223 Remington. Part of my problem with the presentation was that there was no identification of the specific loads he was referring to or, except very vaguely, or even the guns they were fired from. The gun he was holding appeared to be an SBR (but barrel length unknown) with suppressor, but no details were provided.

The narrator mentioned that holdovers are required for both the 300 BLK and 223 at different distances, but …? That is true of any cartridge and load if the gun and sight aren’t zeroed for the specific range being engaged. The devilish detail is in how much point of aim adjustment is needed at different ranges for different cartridges.

The 7.62×51mm NATO cartridge is significantly more powerful than the 300 Blackout and therefore bullets of similar weights have flatter trajectories than if they were fired from the 300. One of the things that struck me most strongly when I was in the Army and went through M16 orientation training was how much easier it was to get hits with the M16 than it had been with the M14 in basic and later. The reason for that was because of the 5.56’s flatter trajectory that permitted pretty much a center hold on the target out to 350 meters (the max range we shot at in those days). With the M14 it was necessary to judge the distance and adjust one’s point of aim accordingly.

The fact that it’s possible to achieve consistent hits with a particular load at a specific distance proves nothing; if the cartridge and gun are precise enough, the gun is operated properly, the sight is zeroed properly, and there are no environmental conditions such as strong winds that interfere with the flight of the bullet, then there’s nothing special about hitting the target. That’s what we would reasonably expect. What becomes difficult is getting hits when it’s necessary to accurately estimate the range and then make significant point of aim adjustments. And without hits, energy and bullet performance also means nothing.

quote:

Originally posted by Sourkraut:
I’m thinking of replacing a suppressed 9mm SBR with a Blackout pistol for an HD weapon. I don’t want to build it myself, so what would be a good way to go? Suggested barrel length and manufacturer?

Depends on how much you’d like to spend:

Daniel defense upper would be spendy but perfect.
I’ve been well served by a nitride PSA barrel/upper.

Go with 8.5” or so barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by sjames:

quote:

Originally posted by Sourkraut:
I’m thinking of replacing a suppressed 9mm SBR with a Blackout pistol for an HD weapon. I don’t want to build it myself, so what would be a good way to go? Suggested barrel length and manufacturer?

Depends on how much you’d like to spend:

Daniel defense upper would be spendy but perfect.
I’ve been well served by a nitride PSA barrel/upper.

Go with 8.5” or so barrel.

I have a 9.5" BCM with MLoc in .300B that I am very fond of.