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Ya or nay




"They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
--Benjamin Franklin, 1759--


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Posts: 1176 | Location: New Hampshire "Live Free or Die"  | Registered: September 02, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Many of them are interesting.

Ease of cleaning doesn't seem to be one of the common features.


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Posts: 13256 | Location: Florida | Registered: June 23, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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In pistol caliber stuff...maybe. Application is everything. As a toy, they're generally real quiet and may give you subsonic performance out of 115 grain cheap ammo.

Somebody recently asked my opinion on them in ARs and I said:

They're a hard no.

1) Very challenging to clean because you can't take the suppressor off. Passing a bore snake through the can would be tough and it would snag. Suppressed ARs are unbelievably dirty so you want cleaning to do you as many favors as possible.

2) Suppressor diameter makes all of the slots on the end of your rail useless because you can't get the MLOK screws tightened without them touching the suppressor. Best case, you have to shorten them. The proximity to the can means they'll transfer heat.

3) You're married to that can on that gun forever. If something goes wrong you have to send the whole upper off. Probably also married to the handguard since you won't be able to get the barrel nut off with the can presumably welded to the barrel. If the barrel and can aren't welded together, it's not truly "integral".

4) Speaking of which, "integrally suppressed" is an undefined term. The most common definition is a suppressor that sleeves over a barrel with ports in it to reduce velocity and therefore noise. No AR "integrally suppressed" upper does this...they're all just a can welded to the barrel under a rail.

5) Heat. That thing is going to be so hot after the first 20 rounds that it will be impossible to handle without gloves. Rifle suppressors will easily reach 400°+ inside of a couple mags fired rapidly. It is impossible to understate how big of an issue heat would be when the upper design basically means wrapping your hand around the suppressor.

The only real "pro" argument is that you might have a 16" OAL and only need one tax stamp.
 
Posts: 4194 | Location: Iowa | Registered: February 24, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I like a few of them conceptually. The .22 pistol ones seem nice to get a short weapon. The B&T subgun one seems very nice to get subsonic performance on supersonic ammo and I'm actively looking for one of those. Not a chance I'd do the 5.56 versions.


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
Posts: 9776 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I think that integrally suppressed rifles are the shit, in any caliber. The problem is no one has really done it right yet, in an AR-platform (or other contemporary center-fire military rifle).

As DaBigBR mentioned, to most manufacturers, it means a can semi-permanently attached to a barrel and tucked under a handguard. That, to me, is not at all what it actually means. It means a rifle that is optimized for use with a silencer to the point that it likely will not function without one.

1) I haven't found cleaning to be a big problem with guns I have direct-thread cans on. Getting a bore snake to drop through the can is a bit aggravating, but a cleaning rod is not problem. Also, a truly integral gun wouldn't be a concern because, being optimized, it wouldn't foul any more than a regular rifle.

2) I don't know why manufacturers insist on wrapping the handguard around the silencer. It is stupid for the heat and attachment problems DaBigBR mentioned. They'd do well to approach it like Larue's SURG entry; let the can just hang out the end of the handguard, and provide a user-removable heat shield.

3) The weld isn't what makes it integral, it's the relationship between the host gun, the can, and the deviances from conventional rifle design that make it work. That being said, nothing needs to be permanently attached, unless a one-stamp gun is the intent. Being married to one can on one gun isn't a bad thing. If it's a well-executed integral gun, you'd never want to change anything anyway. The guy in the market for an integral already has other cans he can move around on guns.

4) I think the term integral as it is applied to ARs is defined as I stated above. Someone could likely create an AR that reduces the velocity, but there perhaps isn't much point, because of the effectiveness of the 5.56 at low velocities.

5) Heat is a real issue, which can be mitigated by companies abandoning the idea of tucking it under the handguard.

The "pro" of a one-stamp gun isn't nearly strong enough to outweigh the cons of what's currently available. I think the only good place to look is participants in the SURG program. Gemtech, Larue, and Sig. Unfortunately, this is more for info than actual product availability, as I don't think these are available for purchase.

There are ways you can approach a build, in order to create your own "integral".

This message has been edited. Last edited by: KSGM,
 
Posts: 457 | Location: Northeast GA | Registered: February 15, 2021Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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A suppressor comes with a $200 tax stamp. An integral suppressor that makes an SBR legal length would save by only requiring 1 tax stamp (suppressor). For example--12" AR15--permanently attach a suppressor to make the length >16".

Not the best solution for rimfire. Rimfire gets really dirty and lead accumulation. I would NOT recommend an integral suppressor for 22LR. CZ marketed their screw in integral rifle suppressor--big fail due to difficulty in disassembly.

Cleaning a dedicated rifle suppressor is a PIA. A patch holds tight to the barrel rifling and loosens once the suppressor is encountered.

Cost--you are spending a lot of money for a dedicated upper that cannot be used on any other gun. A 30 cal rifle suppressor can be used on 308, 300BO, 223, 6.5. A 45 cal pistol suppressor can be used on 45, 40, 9mm, 300 BO(sub).

Can you really only have 1 dedicated integral gun? You really need to enter the NFA addiction like the rest of us.
 
Posts: 1908 | Location: Southeast CT | Registered: January 18, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
I would NOT recommend an integral suppressor for 22LR.

While I have no personal experience (I have a couple in jail) all of the ones I looked before ordering seem very easy to disassemble and clean. And had decent user experiences. Do you have some different personal experience?
j


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
Posts: 9776 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I have always more thought of a VSS, MP5SD or some of the ruger 22 handgun uppers. Unfortunately I think the reasons stated above and being married to the same can is the issue unless you are .gov and playing with someone else's money.
 
Posts: 2634 | Location: Pnw | Registered: March 21, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by hrcjon:
quote:
I would NOT recommend an integral suppressor for 22LR.

While I have no personal experience (I have a couple in jail) all of the ones I looked before ordering seem very easy to disassemble and clean. And had decent user experiences. Do you have some different personal experience?
j


22lr is very dirty and especially hard to clean in a suppressor that may not be able to be opened..or made of aluminum.

If I could do it over I’d have gotten a stainless 22 can. You can use chemicals (makes deadly mix tho) to clean them or even blast with walnut w/o ruining the baffles .

I have seen one integral 22 suppressed pistol. It was a Ruger and I think it was from the factor that way. The end cap could be removed and serviced though…but it was still very dirty even after a few rounds.



"Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”
― Robert A. Heinlein

“ You may beat me, but you will never win.” sigmonkey-2020

 
Posts: 9006 | Location: Temple, Texas! | Registered: October 07, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I can't imagine that there is a .22lr suppressor that you can't disassemble. But in any case all of the ones I looked at (and the ones I have in jail) completely disassemble and have stainless baffles. So I'm hoping its just toss them in the ultrasonic and go. But we shall see... when the ATF gets around to i.t.


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
Posts: 9776 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I found using silicone oil on the baffles and tube to really aid in removing crud after shooting



"Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”
― Robert A. Heinlein

“ You may beat me, but you will never win.” sigmonkey-2020

 
Posts: 9006 | Location: Temple, Texas! | Registered: October 07, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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