quote:

Originally posted by Andyb:
Thats a cool photo! What mount is that? Looks like it has a third pillar

It's a non-standard experimental mount produced for the Infantry School trials with the MP43/1 and ZF4 scope in early 1944. They were experimenting with different styles of receiver rails and mounts, to try to determine if the MP43/44 could be made into a suitably accurate sharpshooter weapon.

Damn that thing is sexy.

Sorry, this thread needs some sound...

Very cool, OP.

Get the book STURMGEWEHR!

I've shot an original!!! A lot of fun.

quote:

Originally posted by 3/4Flap:
Very cool, OP.

Get the book STURMGEWEHR!

Definitely. In fact, a revised 2nd Edition was released a couple years ago, so get that one.

It's a great, in-depth look at the development of the StG/MP44.






Link to original video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kue6rAY5wUg

Late WWII original 28,500 dollars. LINK:

https://www.rockislandauction....un-sturmgewehr-28750

Congratulations!!! That's very nice score!!!

People always say how it's the grandfather of the AK but I thought it was more like an HK ...

Not really knowing what it was I handled a dewat some 25 or so years ago, stamped MP44, the barrel had been plugged from the chamber end and the bolt wouldn't quite close. A guy brought it into a gunshow said he found it in the attic of an old farm house he had bought, didn't know anything about guns and just didn't want it around. It had a thin cover of rust covering it, to me it sounded plausible, but I was still neive about NFA. He didn't have the papers for it and so it wouldn't have been his to sell anyway ...

It was pretty amazing and everything seemed to work; I think the selector was only 2 position, F/A and safe. He was only wanting $100 for it ... I pulled the stock off it and looked it over pretty well. Later I found out from other vendors it was suspected he was an undercover ATF agent trying for a sting which explained how he had gotten over 1/2 way through the show and still had it ... maybe fortunately I'd just spent my cash on a HK93 and he didn't want to do any trading so I had to watch it walk away.

I went home and pulled up everything I could find on it, at that time a registered was going for around $10K ... of course an unregistered one was worth that as a fine and/or 10 years in prison or both. That day left a real impression on me.

What's the chances of some field stripped pictures?

the operating system is actually nothing like an hk. the locking system is similar to an sks w/ a tilting locking block. the tappet rod is kind of like an ak but the ak locking system is totally different {rotating bolt}. the receiver is stamped. mainspring is in the stock like an ar.

they are pretty heavy and recoil of the one i shot was about nil. very easy to control in full auto.

all in all, it would be an interesting gun in semiauto i think. not at all conducive to modifications like an ar is, tho.

as for the ak, there is nothing revolutionary about it at all except for its vast production! it's genius was in the combination of well proven parts. it's really nothing more than a gas operated remington model 8 with a similar trigger {also common to the garand but IIRC invented by a frenchman in the late 1800's} and safety lever layout and tappet rod taken off an sks and the layout of parts/ergonomics of a stg-44.

quote:

Originally posted by 3/4Flap:
and tappet rod taken off an sks

The AK doesn't have a "tappet rod"...

The gas in an AK acts directly upon the gas piston, which is connected to the bolt carrier. Both the piston and bolt carrier are one mass that moves through its entire travel. This is a "long stroke" system.

On a "short stroke" system like the SKS, the gas still acts on a piston, but it's not connected to the bolt carrier, and the part(s) acted directly upon by the gas only moves rearward a short distance before stopping, with the bolt carrier then continuing further back from the momentum of the force imparted upon it.

Here's a two part video that does a good job of explaining the difference between the SKS-style short stroke and AK-style long stroke gas systems:

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:

quote:

Originally posted by 3/4Flap:
and tappet rod taken off an sks

The AK doesn't have a "tappet rod"...

The gas in an AK acts directly upon the gas piston, which is connected to the bolt carrier. Both the piston and bolt carrier are one mass that moves through its entire travel. This is a "long recoil" system.

On a "short recoil" system like the SKS, the gas still acts on a piston, but it's not connected to the bolt carrier, and the part(s) acted directly upon by the gas only moves rearward a short distance before stopping, with the bolt carrier then continuing further back from the momentum of the force imparted upon it.

Yeah, you are correct. the term i used is wrong as the ak uses a connected bolt group and operating rod. my bad.

The AK's gas operating system is closer to the StG 44 than the SKS. They're both long stroke gas systems. Note the attached gas pistons and bolt carriers:




But you were partially correct, in that some of the early AK prototypes did use a short stroke gas system similar to the SKS, like this one:

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
The AK's gas operating system is closer to the StG 44 than the SKS. They're both long stroke gas systems. Note the attached gas pistons and bolt carriers:




But you were partially correct, in that some of the early AK prototypes did use a short stroke gas system similar to the SKS, like this one:

those are great pics.

I used the wrong term for the operating rod. I never said the operating rod was like the sks, i said the locking system was.

yes, the early aks did use an "sks-like" operating rod system!!

again, tho, isn't it interesting there are no truly original ideas found in the ak? maybe the return spring is sort of? but even there, there are some german subguns from the '30's that use a vaguely similar approach!

i made this comment on the ak side of arfcom and it led to a discussion in which i got banned!!

the moderator sent me a pm and told me he was more or less doing me a favor and advised me to just let them think what they want to. I think actually the phrase he used was "let them play with their junk". i got "mercy banned"!

I thought the STG 44/MP 43/44 came before the SKS ... so isn’t the tilting bolt that the SKS used taken from the STG44 / MP 43/44?

The tilting bolt was also used in Russian PTRS41, designed by Simonov as well.

quote:

Originally posted by kimberkid:
I thought the STG 44/MP 43/44 came before the SKS ... so isn’t the tilting bolt that the SKS used taken from the STG44 / MP 43/44?

Nope. That style of tilting bolt didn't originate with either the MP44 or SKS. Besides, the SKS was in development (and already incorporated a tilting bolt) years before the MP44 entered development or service anyway.

I believe the first major gun to use the tilting bolt system was likely the Czech ZB26 LMG that was designed in the 1920s, which predated the SKS and MP44 by a couple decades. And the Soviets had already used a short stroke gas system with a tilting bolt in other earlier rifles before the SKS, like the SVT-38/SVT-40 and PTRS-41.

The SKS was basically built as a scaled-down version of Simonov's PTRS-41 anti-tank gun that he designed in the late 1930s, which also used a tilting bolt. The rifle that would becomes the SKS originated as a prototype 7.62x54R semiauto carbine in the late 1930s/early 1940s, and the design was then altered for 7.62x39 what that intermediate round was introduced in 1943, resulting in its ultimate adoption as the SKS.


PTRS-41 and SKS bolt comparison below. Note that they're nearly identical, just scaled differently.




SKS genealogy:

PTRS-41 in 14.5x115, designed in 1938:


Prototype SKSs in 7.62x54R from the late 1930s and early 1940s:




Prototype SKS in 7.62x39 from 1944:


SKS trials rifles from 1945:


Production SKS:

This message has been edited. Last edited by: RogueJSK,

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:

I believe the first major gun to use the tilting bolt system was likely the Czech ZB26 LMG that was designed in the 1920s, which predated the SKS and MP44 by a couple decades.

Also, conceptually, the tilting block goes way farther back to at least the Peabody, Martini and Norwegian Krag Peterson. And I suppose a case could be made for the Hall and Norwegian Kammerlader as precursors but they combined a breechblock by "tilting" that got out of the way with the "cartridge case" itself!!

It is nearly impossible often to actually find the true inventor of gun mechanisms and looking over patents for various guns it is obvious many are strongly dependent or at least influenced by previous actions, which I suppose is why there have been so many lawsuits over who invented what and patent infringements in the gun industry!

Well, I was referring to gas-operated tilting bolt systems, but even those will have their roots in manually-operated tilting bolt systems.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
Well, I was referring to gas-operated tilting bolt systems, but even those will have their roots in manually-operated tilting bolt systems.

+1

It's really quite fascinating.

Take the AK trigger.

Goes back clearly to the Garand, which was a knockoff of the Remington model 8 but even that JMB took from his previous A5 and that IIRC seems to have been plucked from a French rifle of the 1890's which escapes me now, and who knows if that was actually the first!

quote:

he rifle that would becomes the SKS originated as a prototype 7.62x54R semiauto carbine in the late 1930s/early 1940s

Now that would be a HOOT to blast with!

Thanks for the history lesson ... It just goes to show how little things have changed ... Different designers, different decades, it's like so many of our favorites are re-combined and re-packaged. It makes me wonder how much the designers knew of other weapons and if they were inspired by other designs or if the designs were more coincidental ...

Andy ... Sorry for the thread drift.