I'm being invited to a long range 3-day 1,000+ yard steel shoot in June and I'd like to prep for it. It's a casual fun-shoot, not a competition. I've decided to sell or trade my unused JAE-700 long action chassis for a scope. I'm hoping to get $2,000 for it or an even trade for a comparable value scope to either put on my M14 in a JAE-100 chassis or on my heavy barrelled Savage-110.

I have a Leupold MK4 ER/T 4.5-14 on my Savage right now, but I'd like to take my M14 as well, so I need a new high dollar scope. If it makes sense to swap the Leupold back to the M14 and put a higher magnification scope on the Savage, then that's fine too. I just want time to get some good zeros and develop a good 1K load.

Leaning toward Vortex, Leupold, US Optics, Nightforce, etc...

This will be used on a 308.

Tony.

Just got back from JP Blue Steel and saw a lot of guys running Vortex Razors for .308. I'd give a shout to Brian Whelen at Colorado Precision Rifle and have him walk you through the best options in your range. (https://www.cprifle.com/contact-us)

quote:

Originally posted by benny6:
3-day 1,000+ yard steel shoot
It's a casual fun-shoot, not a competition.
scope to either put on my M14 in a JAE-100 chassis or on my heavy barrelled Savage-110.
I have a Leupold MK4 ER/T 4.5-14 on my Savage right now, but I'd like to take my M14 as well
This will be used on a 308.

Since it's a steel shoot, I suspect multiple targets at various distances. You may have to switch between targets fairly rapidly. You'll probably have wind to deal with. You probably will shoot at different scope magnification levels. If all of these assumptions are correct, then a First Focal Plane scope is your first order of business. Now if you will be hammering away on fixed-distance paper targets -- similar to F-Class -- then scope options are likely different.

I had a Leupold MK4 4.5-14x. Got rid of it awhile ago. That scope model is long in the tooth, and you can do a lot better.

1,000 yards is a long ways for a 308, if consistent accuracy is expected. Especially if you're shooting at lower altitudes. For my summer Density Altitude of 9,000+ feet, 308 Win works OK. But the bullet gets tossed in the wind. Use your Savage. I know you like your M14s, but they are completely outclassed by bolt actions and especially by other calibers (6.5mm and 6mm) at such distances. For your 308, I find 155 grain Scenar, Amax, and ELD bullets struggle in the wind at long distance. Don't even consider 168 SMK. Go with 175 SMK or 168 Amax or 168 ELD loads.

Leupold -- I defer to others. There are options. IMO Leupold is behind the curve on tactical-type scopes.

US Optics -- Some decent scopes, based on the few I've looked through. I'm not impressed enough to buy one. They might be priced out of your range.

Kahles -- Nice scopes, but probably out of your listed price range.

Burris -- Worth looking at XTR 3 line. Definitely look through before you buy. The ones I've looked through were bright and clear, with pretty good turret feel. I've heard from people I trust that CA can be sub-par on some models.

Vortex -- To keep some dollars in your pocket, the Viper PST Gen 2 line is quite good. IMO noticeably above Burris' comparable models. I have a 2-10x which is quite a good scope. I know other shooters which are pleased with this model, and others of higher magnification. The Razor HD Gen2 scopes might be tough to get on your stated budget, but I think they're decent scopes.

Nightforce -- The value line is SHV 4-14x. I have two of these scopes on 22lr rifles. Glass is clear and bright, but the 10 MOA per rev on the elevation turret is an irritation when you're going long. The NXS-8 line is in your price ballpark. I haven't looked through one, so it's tough to comment. There are camps who both love and hate the NXS-8 higher-magnification scopes. The ATACR line is really good, but you'll have a tough time finding anything in your price range.

For a few years I shot steel matches with a NF NXS 3.5-15x F1. Not the original SFP Nightforce models, with the blue-ish tint. I spotted impacts for others at up to 1200 yards -- meaning that uber-high magnification isn't necessary for steel targets at 1000 yards. But if you're buying your first long distance scope, I think you'll find it nice to have 20x or 25x on the scope's high end -- not for all shooting and spotting, but here and there.

There will be multiple steel targets of different sizes strewn across the line at each distance. Some really small targets and larger ones at every distance marker.

For ammo, I've got some 175gr FGMM, M118LR and a bunch of Berger LRBT 175's and Berger 175gr OTM tactical as well as 168gr and 155gr Berger hybrids. I may even have some 185gr Berger juggernauts.

I've got tons of brass, primers and powder. 4064, H4895, IMR-4895, RL-15 and Varget.

Tony.

I would say to look at the Razor HD Gen2 scopes 4.5x27x56 should be in that price range more or less depending what reticle you want.
I would otherwise say any in that power range from NightForce, US Optics or S&B are going to be around a grand or so more and are a little nicer.
YMMV

What about this guy? I can get it for $1,500 with my dealer account. (not from Opticsplanet)

https://www.opticsplanet.com/v...X-RS-RZR5-RZR-52005A

Here's the chassis I'm going to try and fund it with.

How about this? I can get it for $1,500


RAZOR HD 5-20X50MM 35MM 25 MOA TURRETS EBR-2B

Tony.

Benny, I have a 3.2 X 17 US Optics MOA FFP I'll send to you to try out. It's on a Larue mount. Sighted in a 308 and ended up selling the 308.
If you don't like it just send it back. If you like we can work something out. Let me know. Email in profile. It's almost like new in box except for in and out of safe ding which is minor

e-mail sent!

Thanks!

For shooting @ 1000+ yards my AIAW has a NF NXS 8-32X56 scope with a MOAR reticle HST and Zero Stop.It has served mr very well.

Question:

What is the utility of a wide range variable scope on a target rifle?
What is the lowest power you have shot with a 5-20X set on?

After I boresighted them, I don't recall using my 8-24s below about 16X and usually higher as I gained experience, topping out around 22X.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Watson:
What is the utility of a wide range variable scope on a target rifle?
What is the lowest power you have shot with a 5-20X set on?

After I boresighted them, I don't recall using my 8-24s below about 16X and usually higher as I gained experience, topping out around 22X.

Magnification used is a combination of personal preference and the specific game being played.

Factors which lead to using higher scope magnifications:
- Paper targets, with the goal of producing the smallest possible groups.
- Stable shooting position.
- Known target distance.
- Limited transitions between different targets. Possibly only one target.
- Plenty of time to make shots count.

Factors which lead to using lower scope magnifications:
- Steel targets, with the goal of one or maybe two hits anywhere on the plate.
- Various shooting positions. From stable prone to improvised positions on barriers.
- Variable target distances. Target distances may be both known and unkown.
- Multiple targets, possibly with challenging transitions between targets.
- Limited time to shoot all targets.

The second group above describes many PRS/NRL/steel matches. Many competitors shoot such matches with magnifications in the 12x to 15x ballpark on many stages.

I've shot some stages in steel matches with magnifications as low as 7x to 9x. It all depends on the stage.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by benny6:


Burris -- Worth looking at XTR 3 line. Definitely look through before you buy. The ones I've looked through were bright and clear, with pretty good turret feel. I've heard from people I trust that CA can be sub-par on some models.

Vortex -- To keep some dollars in your pocket, the Viper PST Gen 2 line is quite good. IMO noticeably above Burris' comparable models. I have a 2-10x which is quite a good scope. I know other shooters which are pleased with this model, and others of higher magnification. The Razor HD Gen2 scopes might be tough to get on your stated budget, but I think they're decent scopes.

I have a couple Burris XTRIII 5.5-30 SCR2 scopes and the same with Vortex Viper PSTs, as well as Athlon ARES BTR, and Sightron SIIIs. I find the Burris XTRIII a much better scope than all of them. One of my Burris scopes seems clearer after a 3-4 hours behind glass but with fresh eyes I cannot tell the difference. I paid around $1500 for them. The Sightron and Vortex then follow in quality and optics (in my opinion). The Athlon has pretty decent glass but other than that it's a piece of crap. When my second barrel on the scope that identifies the zero position came loose they recommended super gluing it back. If I didn't feel comfortable I could send it back to them and they'd do it. When I had an issue with a 1st Gen Viper PST reticle, Vortex sent me a UPS label and fixed it no questions asked.

quote:

Originally posted by DansSIGs:
OP,
A Hubble Telescope will NOT drive either of your rifles....at any distance.

Leave the 800yd M1A in the safe....until you know how to load LR ammo for that platform.

Mount your Leupold 4.5x14 scope on your Salvage to an fwd extended rail w/ handloaded ammo less than 1/4 MOA ammo w/ES of 15FPS or less or save the components until competent.

There is only ONE thing that matters at 1000yd,5/8 Mile......everything!

Dope/Call/Plot each & every shot or you'll be playing catch up chasing your tail all day like a puppy dog chasing it's tail.

My M14's are quite capable of shooting 1k. I just haven't had the chance to do it yet. The last time I shot my M14 at 600 yards my last 10 shots after making my last sight correction scored 98-5X on a F-class target. I also recall shooting 9" 10-shot groups with it at 600 as well.

And I'm the M14 guy. I can't leave them in the safe! I'm taking my M1 Garand too to see how far I can ring steel with that iron sight warhorse. It's a 3-day fun event.

Tony.

quote:

Originally posted by benny6:

quote:

Originally posted by DansSIGs:
OP,
A Hubble Telescope will NOT drive either of your rifles....at any distance.

Leave the 800yd M1A in the safe....until you know how to load LR ammo for that platform.

Mount your Leupold 4.5x14 scope on your Salvage to an fwd extended rail w/ handloaded ammo less than 1/4 MOA ammo w/ES of 15FPS or less or save the components until competent.

There is only ONE thing that matters at 1000yd,5/8 Mile......everything!

Dope/Call/Plot each & every shot or you'll be playing catch up chasing your tail all day like a puppy dog chasing it's tail.

My M14's are quite capable of shooting 1k. I just haven't had the chance to do it yet. The last time I shot my M14 at 600 yards my last 10 shots after making my last sight correction scored 98-5X on a F-class target. I also recall shooting 9" 10-shot groups with it at 600 as well.

And I'm the M14 guy. I can't leave them in the safe! I'm taking my M1 Garand too to see how far I can ring steel with that iron sight warhorse. It's a 3-day fun event.

Tony.

You know I just had to get into this discussion. I've been busy beyond imagination these last few months, with little to no time to participate in fora, but I'm starting to get control of it.

Anyway, Tony, I would just ignore whatever DanSIGs said to which you just responded; it's doesn't apply here. You are not out to shoot benchrest at 1000 yards, you're going out to hit steel. I have seen people hit the standard NRA LR-1 target at 1000 yards with M1As and M14. They did it quite competently. Heck I still see people shooting at the LR-1 target every month with their iron-sighted Palma rifles. There is no need to have handloaded ammo that group under 1/4 MOA to shoot 1000 yards. Heck, I just qualified 2 shooters at the last 1000 yard match who came out to play with the 6.5 CM smokepoles with factory ammo. The SD at the target was in the 50FPS range. They hit the paper just fine.

It's one thing to jot down and plot every shot at 1000 yards when you're running an iron sighted rifle, just because you have to. But when you are using a Hubble-class scope, you do NOT want to spend time doing that. I have a tough time getting old iron-sighters to stop doing that when they come over to the dark side (F-class). It's a completely different game in that respect. I don't know about shooting steel at that distance, but I seriously doubt you are plotting the shots.

Anyway, just FYI, there's a massive difference between 600 yards and 1000 yards, especially with the F-class targets and .308 ammo. I have cleaned a 600 F-class target multiple times; I've only cleaned a 1000 yard target once and I shoot at 1000 yards about 10X as much as at 600 yards. It will be worse for you because of the short barrels.

Bring all you've got and load 175SMKs is that's the best bullet you've got. The 155 would be fine in the bolt, pushing them at near 3000FPS as much as possible. I don't know if you can do that in an M1A. The 175SMK is the bottom of the bullet barrel in 308 for 1000 yards. If you can find some Jugs that would be cool. What twist rate do you have in the barrels?

FYI Tony, I have several hundred Juggernauts that I'm not going to be using, if you want them.

Thanks for the tips, Nikon!

Expert, E-mail sent.

Tony.

quote:

Originally posted by NikonUser:
[QUOTE]Bring all you've got and load 175SMKs is that's the best bullet you've got.

The timing of this post is ironic. I stopped at Sierra's outlet store in MO this afternoon and picked up 5# of .308 175 SMKs for my M14 Bula. Planning to range out to 600-ish yards at our farm.

quote:

Originally posted by Merc50:

quote:

Originally posted by NikonUser:
[QUOTE]Bring all you've got and load 175SMKs is that's the best bullet you've got.

The timing of this post is ironic. I stopped at Sierra's outlet store in MO this afternoon and picked up 5# of .308 175 SMKs for my M14 Bula. Planning to range out to 600-ish yards at our farm.

So you have 200 175SMKs, that's not a huge amount. Now, I will state here and now that the 175SMK is a fine bullet for 600yards, just as the 168SMK is great at 300 yards.

In the days of yore, before high BC/high weight bullets started getting introduced, the 175 was stellar compared to lesser designs. But we got over that 20 years ago.

The .mil use the 175SMK in their M118 LR loading (if I remember the name correctly,) and it's pretty piss-poor ammo for 1000 yards precision shooting, especially in short barrels like 24 inches. I have stories, but that's for another time. Suffice it to say that any store-bought .308 WInchester ammo is not designed for 1000 yards. (I know there are offerings with Berger jugs, but it won't compete with carefully developed handloads.)

For 600 yards, the 175SMK will do just fine in your rifles.

Curious.

Since Berger has discontinued their 185gr Juggernauts, what is the best available long range .308 bullet for accuracy? 175SMK?