The Hòney Badger is a AR15 pistol with a proprietary arm brace and recently the ATF has contacted the manufacturer to tell them that the ATF has "determined" that the Honey Badger is now considered an SBR.

I have watched a couple videos and read a few articles but evidently the ATF gave no reason for their new determination.

Anyone have any details on why they are picking on this particular AR pistol?

One of the articles
https://www.breitbart.com/poli...er-braces-under-nfa/

I am wondering if it is due to the platform on the buffer tube that looks to be made for a attain a good cheekweld?

https://www.guns.com/news/2020...er-on-q-honey-badger

quote:

Originally posted by dewhorse:
The Hòney Badger is a AR15 pistol with a proprietary arm brace and recently the ATF has contacted the manufacturer to tell them that the ATF has "determined" that the Honey Badger is now considered an SBR.

We heard:

https://sigforum.com/eve/forums...290043574#7290043574


https://sigforum.com/eve/forums...580043574#3580043574


The letter from the Boston ATF office merely states that the gun is “designed” to be fired from the shoulder and as I understand it, there has been no further explanation of that determination forthcoming in responses to requests. What something is “designed” for is in the mind of the producer, whereas what it can be used for is objective: A pair of scissors that was designed and sold to cut paper could be used as a deadly weapon under some circumstances.

All similar “arm braces,” or even a naked receiver extension (buffer tube) can be used to permit firing the gun from one’s shoulder, but was that their intended design? To reiterate, the ATF letter to Q doesn’t explain the basis for the decision, and we probably won’t know if other designs are permitted until the agency does.

My speculation is that the local Boston office made a unilateral decision to ban the product without consulting the headquarters, but I’m just guessing of course.

Added: Somewhere I believe I saw it stated that promotional materials produced by the company, Q, showed the gun being fired from the shoulder using the brace for stabilization. If that’s true, then not only was it stunningly stupid on its part, but then it could be argued that that was the purpose of its design, manufacture, and sale.

Doh...thank you

local rumor mill says the owner of Q has a history of conflict with the ATF over something in his past business practices,
and that now the ATF has a hardon and watches every thing he does,

also mentioned was that the dimensions of the brace was off just enough of the standard braces available now to cause a relook at braces, specifically his,
something about overall LOP (Lenght of Pull),

again, rumor mill from some tacticool guys in this area,

no idea if true, but it would not surprise me if someone was trying to pad a resume in tech branch

bc the ATF is a bunch of crooked, degenerates and needs to be done away. pretty much sums it up

quote:

local rumor mill says the owner of Q has a history of conflict with the ATF over something in his past business practices,

He's a bit EXCENTIC to say the least.

quote:

Originally posted by rscalzo:

quote:

local rumor mill says the owner of Q has a history of conflict with the ATF over something in his past business practices,

He's a bit EXCENTIC to say the least.

More like asshole.

quote:

Originally posted by David W:

quote:

Originally posted by rscalzo:

quote:

local rumor mill says the owner of Q has a history of conflict with the ATF over something in his past business practices,

He's a bit EXCENTIC to say the least.

More like asshole.

When he used to live in Georgia and was still working for Sig, he was in a local shop I happened to be in at the time. That was my impression from the conversation.

Other posts elsewhere show they have suspended it.

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:
Other posts elsewhere show they have suspended it.

Suspended what?
The cease and desist letter?

Answered my own questions; link:

https://sigforum.com/eve/forums...858/m/2570023574/p/2

quote:

Originally posted by dewhorse:
I am wondering if it is due to the platform on the buffer tube that looks to be made for a attain a good cheekweld?

https://www.guns.com/news/2020...er-on-q-honey-badger

Perhaps so. Combine that in conjunction with the brace extended for a rifle-like length of pull, and the talk about the contentious relationship the company has had in the past with ATF. Generally it's NOT a good idea to get in the crosshairs of what can be a very spiteful agency, especially if one is inclined to really piss people off along the way while doing so.

Articles with explanations offered:

https://www.tactical-life.com/...badger-pistol-brace/

https://www.tactical-life.com/...gets-q-honey-badger/

"Bully Tactics
There has been one prosecution of someone accused of redesigning a PSB-equipped pistol into an SBR. Vasquez says that the ATF singles out smaller companies because of their relative lack of resources.

“They used an arm brace that lacked the FTISB seal of approval,” Vasquez explained. “What is that seal of approval? Even though they are made as an arm brace and meet the known criteria of an arm brace, there is no regulation requiring ATF approval.”

Companies like SIG, HK, and Springfield Armory have deep pockets and armies of lawyers. Q, Fostech, and Kalashnikov, however, lack the assets to support a protracted and expensive legal fight.

The decision-makers at the ATF know this. These small companies represent low-hanging fruit. A victory against Fostech or Q better positions the ATF to move against larger stuff later. Vasquez believes these latest efforts reflect deliberate attempts to break these smaller companies and build precedents.

“Given the lack of standards if ATF can win a case on the arm brace then they can cite that court case in follow-on cases,” Vasquez said."


"Political Motivations
Everything turns on the upcoming election. Entrenched ATF policy-makers with a hardline agenda are positioned to enter a Biden Presidency launching a new regulatory offensive. The White House is pushing back, but Trump is in a political fight for his life. An outgoing President’s power is profoundly diminished.

In fact, the curious case against the Q Honey Badger took yet another turn recently. After an uproar from the firearm industry, the ATF curiously sent another letter to Q’s representative. It informs the ATF backed off the Cease & Desist, taking 60 days to look into the matter further. That 60-day mark would conveniently push a decision to after the election … convenient indeed.

Q announced it would not resume manufacturer of the Honey Badger Pistol at this time. There remains a high level of distrust toward ATF’s motives.

“We believe this 60-day suspension is an effort to put manufacturers, distributors, and consumers at ease, and to postpone the issue pas the presidential election in hopes that a new administration will take a different view,” Q wrote in a response. “Using licensees as political pawns is unbecoming of a regulatory agency and ignoring the underlying evaluation in this letter is simply irresponsible. Q will not succumb to this level of irresponsibility. Therefore, without further clarification from ATF on their evaluation, we will not continue manufacturing the Honey Badger Pistol.”

ATF Radio Silence
Inquiries from companies like Q and SB Tactical have thus far not been addressed. The ATF meets requests for technical guidance with deafening silence. Vasquez feels that this intransigence reflects intentional stalling.”

“How difficult is it to provide criteria? The ATF interprets the regulations and statutes driven by political leanings,” Vasquez said. “If those making firearm decisions are anti-gun then opinions are written accordingly. This isn’t supposed to be ATF’s method of operation yet here we are.”

The ATF currently appears to be hedging its bets. By dragging its feet until after the election the agency can adapt to changing tides. For American gun owners, however, these tides might very well be portents of a coming hurricane.

“Instruction and direction from this DOJ will simply disappear if the administration loses the election,” Vasquez said. “At that point the antigun agenda espoused by many in the ATF leadership will take off like a rocket.”

SB Tactical adjustable AR braces are designed to only use 5 positions on a 6 position buffer tube. This limits the length of pull to less than 13" which I think is the limit to avoid it being "rifle stock length". If the Honey Badger extends farther, that could be an issue.

The BATFE seems to be irritated at the proliferation of "SBR's" using braces that thumb their nose at NFA. However, if braced AR pistols are not commonly used in crime - and they aren't - what is the real purpose of restricting them? Yeah, we know the answer.