https://www.military.com/daily...Early%20Bird%20Brief

Marines Face Shortage of Rifle Optics for New Recruits at Boot Camp

15 Apr 2019
Military.com | By Matthew Cox

The Marine Corps may soon run out of rifle combat optic sights for young recruits to train with at Parris Island and other entry level training centers, according to a recent Marine administrative message.

The Marine rifle combat optic, or RCO, is the standard 4X magnification sight Marines use for M16A4 rifles and M4 carbines. The sea service is now experiencing "RCO shortages due to a combination of service life expiration and breakage," according to the message, which describes the findings of the Marines' recent 2019 Combat Marksmanship Symposium.

"Based on the current sustainment model, the shortfall will have a critical impact on both Marine Corps Recruit Depot Parris Island and The Basic School within 6 months and Weapons and Field Training Battalion, Edson Range within 12 months," the message states.

The Combat Marksmanship Symposium, or CMS, was held Oct. 1-5, bringing decision-makers together to discuss issues affecting combat marksmanship and recommend possible solutions for the future, according to the message.

Military.com reached out to the Marine Corps for more details on the shortfall, such as how many RCOs the service is lacking, but did not receive an answer by press time.

The RCO is a version of Trijicon's advanced combat optical gunsight, or ACOG. It relies on a dual-illumination technology that uses a combination of fiber optics and self-luminous tritium, which results in a continuous illumination of the aiming point without the need for batteries, according to Trijicon's website.

"The unique reticle pattern provides quick target acquisition at close combat ranges while providing enhanced target identification and hit probability out to 800 meters," the website states.

The Marine Corps is considering redistributing RCOs "across the total force" to "reduce the immediate training impact."

"This highlights a need to develop a use and care policy for [entry-level training] in order to reduce shortfalls and a long-term sustainment model for the total force," the message states.


-- Matthew Cox can be reached at matthew.cox@military.com

Time to adequately fund our men in uniform.

can anyone here answer:

as far as training at Boot camp is concerned - are recruits issued an optic for the duration of Boot Camp? or just to mount to their weapon while they are undergoing marksmanship training?

I would think to preserve the optics from breakage - they would limit the issuing of optics to only the rifle firing 'events'

I realize that is not ideal for several reasons...

just curious how they incorporate the optics into the overall program of instruction

----------------------------------

What's wrong with using this?



Shouldn't recruits be learning the fundamentals first anyway?

If the intent of having a rifle and learning how to use it properly is to hit the targets, optical sights are much better for speed and accuracy than irons. At one time military philosophy was against repeating rifles because it would encourage troops to waste ammunition, and they were also taught (and equipped) to be able to turn their rifles—even repeaters with lots of ammunition—into spears. As far as I know we have finally moved beyond both concerns.

I am a little surprised, though, that “breakage” is listed as one reason for the shortage. I was under the impression that ACOG sights were the Glocks of optics and were indestructible and perfect in every other way as well.

My kid is a 12B in the ANG. He went thru basic last summer. His platoon was the LAST unit at Ft. Leonard Wood that was being taught iron sites. It's all optics from now on. He also didn't get to throw a grenade because of budget cuts.

Too much money on the F-35B, apparently.

Cut back on barracks and BOQ renovations maybe to get more optics?



In terms of "RCO shortages due to a combination of service life expiration and breakage,", let's do the math.

In 2005, the USMC ordered $660M work of RCOs . Likely started delivery in 2006 and spread out through the next couple of years.

Oh SHIT, that is right around the 12 year half life of the Tritium ACOG illumination...

I would bet a lot of the 'broken' ACOGs simply no longer have tritium illumination, ie they are working 'as designed'.

Time for the USMC to pony up to Trijicon to re-lamp the ACOGs or otherwise service them.

quote:

Originally posted by qxsoup:
He also didn't get to throw a grenade because of budget cuts.

That was the only day the Drill Sergeants were nice to us

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

Cut back on barracks and BOQ renovations maybe to get more optics?

They did that. The resulting no-shit public health concerns that resulted were recently in the news - and before Congress.

Convincing Congress to do a better job of fencing money might be the better ticket.

And getting the DoD to pass an audit couldn't hurt either.

I saw a few with broken glass but the most issues were unable to zero. They are fielding a new RCO, the M7, it can be used on either the A4 or the M4. Red horseshoe dot. Maybe they decided to start letting the A4/M4's expire and haven't gotten all of the new ones yet.

https://www.trijicon.com/na_en...hp?pid=TA31-D-100581

quote:

Originally posted by qxsoup:
My kid is a 12B in the ANG. He went thru basic last summer. His platoon was the LAST unit at Ft. Leonard Wood that was being taught iron sites. It's all optics from now on. He also didn't get to throw a grenade because of budget cuts.

I went to basic at Leonard Wood in 2009, we learned and qualified with irons but we did get to shoot with optics a few times. What’s sad is that before I got out after a few years a new private told me that they don’t even make them wear their battle rattle on the range anymore. Just ear and eye pro and gloves...

quote:

Originally posted by qxsoup:
My kid is a 12B in the ANG. He went thru basic last summer. His platoon was the LAST unit at Ft. Leonard Wood that was being taught iron sites. It's all optics from now on. He also didn't get to throw a grenade because of budget cuts.

ARNG?

ANG is Air National Guard

They should upgrade them to a Vortex 1-6.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

I am a little surprised, though, that “breakage” is listed as one reason for the shortage. I was under the impression that ACOG sights were the Glocks of optics and were indestructible and perfect in every other way as well.

My pretty educated guess is that they probably got a large "fielding" of ACOGs many years ago. At this time, the number of broken optics is just slowly growing and not keeping up with repairs and replacements.

They are tough and a civilian user can expect it to basically last forever. With constant military use though, a certain percentage are always down. If I'm looking at an infantry company's 20 or so ACOGs, I expect to see 2-4 broken ones. They've all been rode hard and put away wet (sandy actually ), so it's nothing against the ACOG. That's Army infantry as well, USMC gear is sadly much older and upgraded less than Army stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
Too much money on the F-35B, apparently.

Cut back on barracks and BOQ renovations maybe to get more optics?



In terms of "RCO shortages due to a combination of service life expiration and breakage,", let's do the math.

In 2005, the USMC ordered $660M work of RCOs . Likely started delivery in 2006 and spread out through the next couple of years.

Oh SHIT, that is right around the 12 year half life of the Tritium ACOG illumination...

I would bet a lot of the 'broken' ACOGs simply no longer have tritium illumination, ie they are working 'as designed'.

Time for the USMC to pony up to Trijicon to re-lamp the ACOGs or otherwise service them.

In addition to combat losses, ACOGs have issues with the internal adjustment dials wearing out. Early signs of wear are the need to tap the adjustment knobs to “settle” them when making adjustments and the need to pass the desired adjustment point and come back I.e. if you want 3 clicks up you have to go up 5 and back down 2 for the dials to engage properly.

^^^^^

The tritium going dim wouldn't be a big deal for basic training shooting daylight rifle quals and maybe a few night familiarization fire sessions.

Those knobs are getting worked though every class re-zeroing them. An individual user wouldn't be adjusting an ACOG much (if ever) after getting a solid initial zero.

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
What's wrong with using this?



Shouldn't recruits be learning the fundamentals first anyway?

Nothing wrong with that IMO.
When I went through basic, there was no such thing as an ACOG. It was irons.
Fritz makes a good point though.

https://www.marinecorpstimes.c...rksmanship-training/

A Marine rifle optic shortage nearly caused ‘critical impact’ in marksmanship training

By: Todd South   1 day ago

In fall 2018, weapons experts at the annual Marine Corps meeting on all things marksmanship warned that without action on a shortage of working rifle optics, shooters at The Basic School in Virginia, Parris Island in South Carolina, and Weapons and Field Training Battalion at Edson Range in California would face “critical impact” on training within six to 12 months.

A combination of a shortage and a number of damaged rifle combat optics used on the M4 carbine had prompted the warning.

That issue arose in a recent Marine administrative message posted online reviewing findings from the October 2018 “Combat Marksmanship Symposium,” held at Marine Corps Base Quantico, Virginia.

The message noted that there were “ongoing efforts to reduce the immediate training impact redistribution across the total force.”

Often equipment is prioritized for deployed or soon-to-deploy troops, meaning support units and sometimes training units might not get the full allotment of gear that is needed.

Headquarters Marine Corps spokeswoman Capt. Karoline Foote responded Wednesday to a Marine Corps Times request regarding the potential shortfall and critical impact.

“The issues with the RCOs referenced in the message were addressed well before any impact to Entry Level Training (ELT) occurred,” Foote wrote in an email. “A series of actions to include redistribution of assets, clarification of maintenance procedures and prioritization of maintenance actions ensured ELT requirements were met.”

Marine Corps Times also asked if the Corps had upped the number of RCOs it expected to purchase this year or for a short-term filler.

“There are no current plans to procure additional RCOs,” she noted.

The RCO used by Marines is made by the company Trijicon. According to congressional budget documents, the Marine Corps plans to by 231 RCOs in the coming fiscal year at a price of about $1,300 each.

In 2018, it bought 21 for $1,250 each. Before then documents showed the Corps bought 187 in the years immediately preceding.

The quantities were categorized as “replenishment” purchases, basically replacing lost or broken gear items but not increasing the total quantity of optics in the Marine inventory.

The RCO’s days are numbered anyway.

The Corps is developing the “squad common optic” to replace the RCO. Initial procurement funding of $19 million is in the current budget request, though there are no quantities listed.

Maj. Kenneth Kunze told Marine Corps Times in an email that procurement of the SCO is expected to begin next year and continue for the next five or more years.

What the Marine Corps told industry back in 2017 was that it want a variable optic that lets shooters use it for both up close targets out to between 600–900 meters and weigh less than 2.1 pounds, according to the original government posting.

It needs to have a field of view of at least 18 degrees and an illuminated central aiming point and work on the M4, M16 and M27 Infantry Automatic Rifle.

Does the USMC use any CCOs?

I like and own and ACOG and have been issued one on a deployment...but my opinion and experience is the CCO/RDS is the single best all-around optic and the best for CQB.

LPV's are great all-around optics as well, but battery life and needing a good cheek weld limit them a bit in dynamic CQB environment.

The right answer IMHO for a military unit is always a blend of optics just like we have a blend of weapon systems. A few LPV or ACOGs, some CCO/RDS, perhaps one rifleman is a DM with a bit more magnification like a 1-8X or a 2.5-10X.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
Too much money on the F-35B, apparently.

The M27 didn't help.