quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
maybe I should just "buy a BCM and spend the rest on ammo and training!"

Bingo.

Or...as you already have ARs, just spend your money on ammo and training.

That video did nothing for me. I have no idea who he is. But imho it was a waste of time.

Fritz' quote of Smudge, and Fritz' additional comment certainly carry immense weight. It's a choice many are faced with, especially "gun guys" who value training. If you're just a "gun guy", you buy the gun; if you're a professional or serious prepared citizen, who sees the gun strictly as a tool, you opt for the ammo and training. Being both creates difficult choices. One thing I have learned, in my life in recent years anyway, is making/finding time for training is much more difficult than buying the ammo. Someone who embraces both aspects of firearms may be at a point in their life when buying the gun may be the right move, because they're currently in a position that prohibits training, so they'll get more enjoyment out of learning/experiencing a new gun in what free time they have. If you are able to train, the right answer is always bullets and training; even then, plenty of gun guys will opt for a new or different gun. I have recently been mulling this over myself. There are a few gun trinkets I'd like to have, but ammo is always whispering to me from the store shelves "you ought to buy me, and USE me!"

Anyway. Sorry for the drift. Per usual, fritz has good advice.

The Galil ACE is just a tarted up AK, plain and simple. I don’t have the 5.56 gun, but I do have both Gen 1 7.62 versions. It has a bunch of proprietary parts, so there isn’t really much available for it, except some handguards. It’s not so much “military”, since few militaries actually use it, and Israel isn’t one of them. Definitely prefer my SCAR 16 over an ACE.

Regarding the HK MR556, one key difference from the military HK416 is that barrel isn’t chrome lined, unlike the military gun. Also, if you get one of the early MRs, it’s quite heavy since those came with a thick heavy barrel. Also, what mags are you planning on using? If you have a lot of Magpul Gen 2/MOE mags, they won’t work because of the straight magwell on the HK. Gen 3s work fine, though. Also, for the price, it’s disappointing that it doesn’t have an AGR.

CZ Bren is nice, but get the Bren 2 instead of the original Bren 805. The 2 fixed a lot of the complaints of the 805. My experience is with the 16” 5.56 carbine. A lot of complaints about the 7.62x39 versions, especially in pistol form. Another complaint is a lack of parts or support from CZ-USA.

ARX-160 is nice. Negatives are that it’s very proprietary, so very little the way of aftermarket, and the trigger is quite heavy (hint - get the shooting sight trigger). Also, it’s discontinued (or very close to it), so again parts could be an issue.

ACR also nice, and the stock is one of the best out there. But when it came out, Bushmaster never really supported it, and I don’t see that’s really changed.

AUG is a good gun, although I only have experience with the standard factory mag stocked one, not the NATO stock that takes AR mags. Trigger sucks, so be prepared for that. Definitely get the Ratworx 2020 trigger if you get one.

X95 is great, unless you want to run a can. Very gassy. Only real fix is investing in a OSS can.

Hellion is still pretty new, but has potential. LOP is longer than Tavors, but not that bad (at least to me) with the stock all the way forward.

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
That video did nothing for me. I have no idea who he is. But imho it was a waste of time.

He's Travis Haley's kid and he's an Airforce CCT (Combat Controller). I guess it's the modern equivalent of the Pathfinders from WWII. He's legit modern special forces. Mostly, he has a following because of that, and he has a sense of humor. Really, the only thing I got from the video is that the bolt handle still reciprocates, but only on the last round, and it's fun to shoot as a suppressed SBR.

If the SCAR what you want, you should probably get it. When I settle for something else, I’m never satisfied and it just eats away at me.

My story is a different. I already had (and still) have an ACR, but I came across a decent deal on a SCAR16, bought it & took it to the range once and sold it at the next fun show. IMHO it didn’t do anything my ACR wouldn’t, the CH doesn’t reciprocate on the ACR, and the ACR doesn’t have a cheap feel to it. Besides that, I was offered $400 more than I gave for it

I’ve heard that SCAR 16 & 17 owners replace the stock with the ACR stock … this may just be website chatter, but it’s what I’ve heard. Also if you want a better trigger the Gisele is the only choice.

The ACR came with the straight stock but I put a folder, replaced the trigger with a 2-stage AR trigger I had on the shelf, and last year I got an email from Bushmaster about their complete 14.5” barrel which picked up as well, added a long flash hider and permenately attached it rather than SBRing it.

I bought my MR556 new last year and the barrel has the newer lighter profile. Makes a big difference. I only have Magpul Gen 3's which are fine. Lancers are tight and do not drop free. I bought some of the HK steel mags on clearance at Midway too. I'd really like the translucent HK's that look like G36 or MR556 mags, but the only place I can find them is HK-Parts for $50 each and that's stupid.

wow, and ACR reference. Haven't heard one of them in years.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
Bingo.

Or...as you already have ARs, just spend your money on ammo and training.

Far too practical. I'll be honest and say I give "fun" and "cool" factors higher points on this one than "practical" because I want to have fun with something cool. Training? Who needs that?

quote:

Originally posted by Dwill104:
The Galil ACE [...] has a bunch of proprietary parts, so there isn’t really much available for it, except some handguards.

Nope. That knocks it out of the running right there. I have one of those. It just happens to say "FS2000" on it instead of "ACE." Before I bough the tuna, I had long owned a Fabarm FP6. Finding parts and accessories for that was hard when they were still making it. I can't even get the company to return an email. I'm only going to play the "parts and availability" game with so many guns. Thankfully, what I own already hasn't been breaking parts, and the SCAR has a reputation for ridiculous reliability, plus a decent aftermarket, so I feel good about laying in a barrel and some other small parts before they vaporize.

quote:

Originally posted by kimberkid:
If the SCAR what you want, you should probably get it. When I settle for something else, I’m never satisfied and it just eats away at me.

Fair. Honestly, what I really want is an ACR. But as above, I want an ACR with factory and aftermarket support that doesn't exist. More to the point, I want the Masada that Magpul designed and not necessarily the ACR that Bushmaster brought to market. Franklin Armory is supposedly involved in bringing something more in line with that vision to market, but I don't want to wait or hold my breath. A few years ago, I stupidly passed one a used one for a grand. I somehow had it in my head that buying a Ruger PC9 and a 10/22 was a better idea? I don't know.

quote:

Originally posted by kimberkid:
I’ve heard that SCAR 16 & 17 owners replace the stock with the ACR stock … this may just be website chatter, but it’s what I’ve heard. Also if you want a better trigger the Gisele is the only choice.

Yup, KDG makes it. I'll be doing that. I'll probably want a better trigger, but I don't think I'll be giving Geissele my money. Looks like Timney makes one now, too. Probably give that a try, and it's a little cheaper also.

Since we're bringing up primo AR pattern rifles, what are opinions on the Barrett AR's? Or are they more on par with BCM and not to be mentioned in the same breath as H&K?

Did ya order it yet? You know you want to...

Is it wrong for me to point to the Sig 553? Probably. But this is really what I went through and I got the Sig. And then the State went and buttfucked me. But you're leaving us in WA to go to AZ where the fun and sun are.

I say, get what your heart wants because:
1) it will never be satisfied with something else,
2) if the SCAR 16 doesn't bring joy, it can be modified or sold without real loss
3) damn it, you're WORTH it!

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
Since we're bringing up primo AR pattern rifles, what are opinions on the Barrett AR's? Or are they more on par with BCM and not to be mentioned in the same breath as H&K?

Barrett ARs are well built, fit & finish is good, haven't seen any cycling issues from the ones I've been around. I put them above BCM. I haven't seen exceptional accuracy from Barrett barrels. Best hope is close to 1 MOA accuracy at closer distances, worse as distance increases.

BCM makes good, reliable rifles. Accuracy about the same as Barrett.

Saw and shot my first H&K in December 2020. Another student had one in a Rifles Only helicopter assault course. Well built, fit & finish were good. IIRC, he had one cycling problem over 4 days -- probably magazine and/or ammo related. Lots of wind-blown dust. I got a little trigger time on the H&K on the last day. Trigger was a bit gritty. Accuracy with the owner's ammo was bad, best hope of maybe 2 MOA. He was more of a 2.5 MOA shooter. With a bit of a protest from the owner, I put a few of my Hornady 75 rounds down range and improved accuracy to around 1.5 MOA. IMO the H&K was a nice rifle, but it didn't hang with my SI Defense receiver-based AR15. FWIW, the KAC and JP rifles there couldn't, either.

With many decades of manufacturing and use, there's little if any secret sauce left in building a quality AR15 that cycles reliably. Lucky Gunner's high-volume test of Bushmaster ARs with low-priced ammo states volumes. IMO it was ultimately lots of ammo down range and barrel wear that brought the Lucky Gunner ARs to their knees. Most AR15 owners will never even get close to the round counts that require replacing a barrel. Nor parts such as the bolt, springs -- maybe not even the lowly firing pin retaining pin. Many AR15 owners may never put more than a couple thousand rounds down a rifle/upper before they grow bored of it, then feel they need to buy another.

It's not rocket science to get a good receiver set, a good BCG, and a good trigger. IMO after that it comes down the barrel -- the primary wear part and the biggest factor in the rifle's accuracy potential. If exceptional accuracy isn't the goal, then the barrel options are much greater. BCM works as a brand that reliably puts rounds down range, at a price that makes more sense than Barrett or H&K or SCAR.

quote:

Is it wrong for me to point to the Sig 553?

Probably. I love the 55X, but I'd say the SCAR is a more practical gun. This is especially true if you want to equip the gun with contemporary lights, lasers, optics, etc. The Sigs get heavy and bulky quick. In their pure, iron-sighted form, I'd take a 55X over a SCAR though.

Fritz, thanks for your input here.

quote:

Originally posted by Loswsmith:
Is it wrong for me to point to the Sig 553? Probably.

Wrong? No. I think it's a fair suggestion. Hell, it's more or less on the list I was considering. I think for the reasons KSGM lists, the SCAR probably wins out, though. Magazines is also a consideration.

quote:

Originally posted by kimberkid:
If the SCAR what you want, you should probably get it. When I settle for something else, I’m never satisfied and it just eats away at me.

My story is a different. I already had (and still) have an ACR, but I came across a decent deal on a SCAR16, bought it & took it to the range once and sold it at the next fun show. IMHO it didn’t do anything my ACR wouldn’t, the CH doesn’t reciprocate on the ACR, and the ACR doesn’t have a cheap feel to it. Besides that, I was offered $400 more than I gave for it

I’ve heard that SCAR 16 & 17 owners replace the stock with the ACR stock … this may just be website chatter, but it’s what I’ve heard. Also if you want a better trigger the Gisele is the only choice.

FYI Timmey and Shooting Sight also make SCAR triggers.

Support for a proprietary design is often limited to the maker, and when its exclusive, then it's no better one from the other. Aftermarket options are a different thing, too, they come and they go. A lot of us went thru this with piston AR's and for the most part only the gunmakers survived by designing one around it well and selling for issue use to nation states.

I wound in the same camp as others who were extensively using SCAR's in small units - their recruiting base were trained on the M16/M4, they had to retrain, the gun itself does nothing "better" in a game changing way, it's mostly incremental and arguable. For the expense, there is a less expensive standard with a 45 year history and a huge aftermarket competing with all sorts of improvements, one or two which have been worthwhile over the last 20 years and adopted - ambi controls for the safety and mag release. A step up for field use, irrelevant for me the deer hunter. A 3Gun competitor would build his rig to suit.

It pretty much leaves owning it for its own sake. I did with a HK91, and eventually sold it. It was my primary hunting rifle early in life, along side it I was using the M16 in the service, the differences finally sank in. The AR is my final choice because I can get "support" far better than any other firearm in America. My last lower came from a local gun store, mags from a sporting goods store, furniture is available from those or gun shops all over town. If they have a Magpul display it's good, they likely have other brands too.

I can't find a Shockwave adapter here in town altho the guns are (rarely) and parts for handguns? Even the 1911 owners have not extended controls and maybe a few mags. The AR? Far far more. I'm happy I got out of the HK precisely because of it's lack of support, and got into something that works. It all boils down to what the money will buy you - I'm too practical to spend SCAR level money even on a watch. But, for cheap quartz watch money, a lower this month, a upper next month - and I'm building my third AR. To me, that is support. Or maybe it's enabling, it's hard to tell the difference.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
Fritz, thanks for your input here.

quote:

Originally posted by Loswsmith:
Is it wrong for me to point to the Sig 553? Probably.

Wrong? No. I think it's a fair suggestion. Hell, it's more or less on the list I was considering. I think for the reasons KSGM lists, the SCAR probably wins out, though. Magazines is also a consideration.

Amen to that.

I have had two SCAR 16's and sold them both. I am sure I would like the new ones more since you can get one with the Non-Reciprocating Charging Handle. I bought the CZ Bren 2 when they first came out and it is without doubt my favorite rifle.

What makes you like the Bren more than the SCAR?

I have a SCAR 17, I would like to get a 16 but I don't want one bad enough to pay full retail. I have a few nice AR rifles that shoot well suppressed and not suppressed, I would still like a scar 16. I wish I got one when I got the 17 near the lowest dip in pricing some years back.

Get familiar with the gas system and barrel assembly, and have a good shop/bench/vise and tools to be able to service those parts, and you will love the SCAR rifles.

They have their quirks. 17's can't take a metal butt plate for stock conversions, it will start to stretch the receiver around the bolt holes at the rear. Either will eat cheap optics. Most of the user complaints regarding suppressors is from using the stock gas jet- which is why your warranty is void, it's overgassed to shit and FN knows it. It's weird, I don't like how they're setup from the factory for civilian use, but there are sources for correctly ported parts and a growing knowledge base for tuning depending on what you want to do. Getting into the guts the first time requires a torch and a vise/bench or you're just going to strip the head out of the screws.

My charging handle reciprocates - it's usually the forward stroke that bites me, so moving rear on last round is actually something I'd like to have and I'm looking forward to finding a conversion kit for mine, it will make more grip options available to work around the weird chonk of the receiver profile.

Know going in you will be buying a trigger, you will be buying some kind of replacement rail something or other like PMM, KDG, MI. There a bunch of flavors of good products, but they're almost necessary as the factory trigger is heavy as heck, and the whole setup with plastic picatinny side rails is not great. I have a Geissele trigger and PMM Mlok replacement rails, though I want something extended length as well.

If you're planning on suppressing it you're already getting a new muzzle device, but if you aren't I'd suggest one. The factory muzzle device is a fairly aggressive brake and unless you're chasing low recoil it's not the greatest choice. You will likely need a shoulder adapter for a suppressor mount as well, due to the barrel profile, or a scar-specific mount. The factory brake uses a jam nut to time and secure it.

If you expect it to be the best thing ever as someone who plans to shoot it and not much else you will be disappointed. It does not put a bullet on target 3x better than a good AR.