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Sigforum K9 handler |
I get that the MK12 is dated. And it has been replaced by larger caliber systems. But, is the MK12 still a viable mid range 5.56 system with something to offer above a mid length 14.5 gun with a 1x10? | ||
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Yeah, that M14 video guy... |
I guess that's a matter of opinion. It depends on the objective or intended use. For the commoners, it will definitely fit someone's role. I mean, my personal HD rifle has a 16" mid-length BCM which is a do-all for me. The MK12 fits in that category. Tony. Owner, TonyBen, LLC, Type-07 FFL www.tonybenm14.com (Site under construction). e-mail: tonyben@tonybenm14.com | |||
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Bolt Thrower |
Are you talking actual MK12, or just an accuracy oriented AR15? | |||
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| Sigforum K9 handler |
Actual MK12. In my way of thinking, back in the day most end users got a MK12 because of features like free float rail, better trigger, better optics. Today, your nothing special 0311 has all of those capabilities in his issued M27. Seems that the modern service rifle does the same job as the MK12. I’m just wondering if there is something I’m not considering that makes the MK12 “special” that the M27, or for that matter a 14.5 BCM with a Geissele trigger and Vortex Razor won’t do. | |||
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Frangas non Flectes |
A close friend of mine is heavily tied into the Mk12 “community” and is one of the few to have owned a few of the very few actual Mk12 uppers that have made it to the secondary market. I’ll see if I can get his input and relay it. I got to shoot one of them some years back, complete with AEM5, and my impression was that it was incredibly accurate, but entirely too heavy for me to have much interest. ______________________________________________ “There are plenty of good reasons for fighting, but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God Almighty Himself hates with you, too.” | |||
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| Member |
It's an interesting question. I would guess that the MK12 is more accurate, has better suppression, a better trigger, a more sniper-oriented scope, and more velocity. That's if we're comparing to a M27. If compared to the BCM 14.5 you mentioned, the MK12 would still likely have the edge in accuracy and suppression, and more velocity-related performance. Probably not worth the weight penalty, in either case. It also lends it self to the squad level of organization, where one man has the advantages of the MK12, while his buddies can take care of performance areas he can't address as well. It would be less viable for an individual "prepared civilian". | |||
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Member |
When that program started over 20 years ago it probably made better sense to just have an 18" upper ready to swap onto an M16A2 to stretch it out to 800+ yards with 262's rather than lugging an M110 around. Both were phased out for the Scar17 and now there's another system around the corner. A lot of money and time went into developing that system and I think it's a solid recipe for personal use. 20 years later and better rails, scope mounts and such have come out along with more vendors with quality SS barrels to build and configure one the way you want. The one I put together with a Wilson Combat 18" barrel and a 2.5-10x42 NXS isn't much heavier or longer than my 14.7" CL barrel with a 1-8x24. One's a general blaster and the other gets 262 clones or 77gn FGMM. | |||
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| Bolt Thrower |
Interesting thought, I read 14.5 and immediately thought of one of the free floated M4 rifles. A head to head between the M27 and the MK12 would be interesting. I wonder how soon the chrome lined bore would flake and impact accuracy. | |||
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| Member |
I thought that wasn't a thing, with modern chrome lining processes. Either which way we consider the MK12, I think it spawned what we now know as the "recce rifle", so it's legacy is going strong. | |||
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| Member |
The Recce inspired the Mk12's development. The Seals preferred a 16" barrel like the recce version and it became the Mk12 mod H. It all revolves around a heavy SS barrel and 10 power optic of some sort. The OG general purpose accurized rifle. Usable at close ranges and consistently effective to 500 yards. The 14.5" Fritz has fits that bill. CL barrels no matter how well made will not achieve the same accuracy potential of a SS barrel. | |||
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| Member |
I did have it backward, but I guess it comes full circle anyway. A stainless heavy barrel seems to be the defining element, in either case. | |||
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| Member |
Honestly, alot of it come's down to the shooter. I recently shot a quantified performance match at the Sawmill. Stages ranged from 100-1000 yards/meters. I had a 14.5 medium contour BCM barrel and a vortex PST II 1-6. I was the lowest scorer in the squad. Most of my issues where due to my lack of experience at shooting to distances beyond 300 yards and off barricades . However, I noticed at the longer stages (800-1000) taht some of the other shooters setups mad it easier for them. Some of my observations on the gear of the better shooters. The better shots where using 1-8 and 1-10 scopes, some where using 14 inch barrels with 77 gr match ammo but most where shooting 16 inch match barrels, one guy had 20" match barrel and he did the best on the longest stages (800-1000) getting the most first shot hits on target. Interestingly enough, almost everyone in our squad was shooting 5.56, only one shooter had a .308. Based on what I saw at the match and some follow on practice sessions, I'm pulling a 16" BCM stainless steel barrel out of storage and switching to 77GR OTM.This message has been edited. Last edited by: CD228, | |||
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| Member |
You said it's about the shooter, but then you gave examples of equipment differences that may have been influential, and wrap it up by stating that you're switching to different equipment and ammo. Had you had a leg up, equipment-wise, and underperformed compared to the other attendees, and wrapped up your comment with a statement about more practice, it would have made more sense. I am not trying to be aggravating; just expressing my confusion in reading your comment. Most of the SF readers know that the shooter is often the biggest factor, but this discussion is about the hardware; specifically the MK12. I think, in the context of considering the MK12, it comes down to the application. Assuming the shooter is a constant, and he is skilled, in what application would the MK12 shine? Once we find that application, we ask ourselves if there's a contemporary rifle that can do as well or better in the same situation, with the same shooter. If the answer is yes, then perhaps the MK12 is a "dead design", if it can't pick up enough slack in other applications, to make up for being dethroned from it's former top-dog scenario. | |||
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| Member |
I made some edits based on what I think you were trying to point out. Good Point by the way. | |||
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| Bolt Thrower |
I would say some of the new rifles in 6ARC appear to have more to offer. | |||
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| Member |
I got the impression the question was being considered in the scope of 5.56mm, as that was one of the "features" of the MK12: compatibility. A relevant video I came across. I am only 19 minutes in, so far, and there's a lot of MK12/Recce talk. This message has been edited. Last edited by: KSGM, | |||
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| Member |
That's pretty much the guy to talk to about the Mk12. Centurion Arms makes a solid one. Now making carriers in house. Sounds like the whole BCG is not far out. SOTAR got a few to check out. | |||
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| Member |
I have a 20 inch colt on a fixed stock just because and it’s a range gun only. I spose I could hunt coyotes with it but no where around here is 800-1000 yard shots. Same with 18 inch where I live. I’d just as soon take my 11.5 or even 16 inch AR and suffer the small loss of velocity in exchange for convenience. Realistically if i expect long shots I’m taking a 308 anyway. | |||
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| Official forum SIG Pro enthusiast  |
I have a MK12 Mod 0 clone heading my way!  One of the first AR15s I assembled completely on my own (upper and lower) was a MK12 style clone full of top shelf parts. This rifle was the last one I built with my grandfather, who mostly observed the pile of parts slowly become a rifle. I used his work bench and table vice to hold the upper in place. I also used his huge torque wrench to install the barrel and get it torqued to proper specs. Oh the tools he had at his disposal in that barn. My build deviated a little from the MK12 mod 0 but my idea was to build something very similar and it turned out pretty good. This incoming addition is a much more accurate clone of the MK12 mod 0.   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The price of liberty and even of common humanity is eternal vigilance | |||
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| Sigless in Indiana  |
Given that criteria I would say, yes, the MK12 has been surpassed by the natural evolution that it partook in. | |||
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