IDF is sticking with 7.62x51.

Israel Buys 7.62x51mm Version Of U.S. Army’s New Sig Sauer M250 Light Machine Gun: Report

Sig Sauer's Light Machine Gun offers the IDF a lighter and handier alternative to its existing Negev-series machine guns.

by Joseph Trevithick
Posted 16 Hours Ago

The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) have reportedly acquired a version of the 6.8x51mm M250 light machine gun that Sig Sauer developed for the U.S. Army, but chambered to fire the NATO-standard 7.62x51mm round. Sig Sauer’s design may now be in line to supplant at least a portion of Israeli Negev light machine guns 5.56x45mm and 7.62x51mm, variations of which are current in IDF service.

Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported yesterday on the IDF’s purchase of the 7.62x51mm version of what Sig Sauer currently markets commercially just as its Light Machine Gun (LMG). The outlet cited anonymous sources, as well as a video that emerged last month, seen in the social media post below that indicates the guns are intended as Negev replacements...

Complete article:

https://www.twz.com/land/israe...t-machine-gun-report

Here's my take:
1. The 7.62x51 cartridge meets the IDF's present needs WRT performance.
2. They probably have sufficient stocks of 7.62x51.
3. They may have domestic production capacity for 7.62x51.
4. Changing their light MG ammo in the middle of a war may not be not prudent.
5. If they did change to the 6.8x51, Israel would be dependent on the US for the ammo for a period of time.
6. Cost & time to develop domestic production and sufficient stockage.
7. No apparent plans to change to the XM7 so ammo commonality isn't an issue for the IDF.
8. Maintains ammo commonality with other IDF weapons?

quote:

Originally posted by 229DAK:
4. Changing their light MG ammo in the middle of a war may not be not prudent.

Ask WW2-era Japan and Italy how it worked out trying to change calibers in the midst of a war... (Hint: It was a logistics nightmare.)

Even the Brits recognized the folly of this, abandoned their plans to switch from .303 to .276 as WW1 was starting, and ended up sticking with .303 for 40 more years.

The US Army will replace the 5.56x45 M4s and M249s. It's not clear; Will 6.8x51 also replace the 7.62x51 in LMGs?

"Compared to the M4 and M249 guns they are replacing, which use NATO standard 5.56x45mm cartridges, the M7 and M250 guns use 6.8x51mm cartridges. The Army has previously indicated that the 5.56x45mm cartridge has been “maxed out from the performance perspective.” Sig’s 6.8mm caliber of ammunition — which feature a hybrid-metallic casing, designed to reduce their weight — offers greater effective range and terminal ballistics over the 5.56mm cartridges."

Source:

https://www.twz.com/land/first...nd-m240-replacements

Introducing a brand-new (and not NATO) cartridge with limited (so far) production capability is a major logistical undertaking. The front-line GIs who get these weapons will see their unit armorer, but not the 3rd and 4th level support. I'm semi-familiar with the ammo side, there will be some new gages but storage and inspection of small arms is not real complicated. However, it will be a while before Lake City is producing large amounts of the 6.8.

https://sgbonline.com/winchest...new-lake-city-plant/

SF has talked about this a lot in recent years, but I did not pay close attention. Once these new 6.8 weapons are fielded (and that's years away), will the Army retain anything in 5.56?

quote:

Originally posted by Sigmund:
Once these new 6.8 weapons are fielded (and that's years away), will the Army retain anything in 5.56?

How long has the US military kept M14s in storage after it was supplanted? 60+ years?

So I suspect there will still be plenty of 5.56 rifles and ammo stashed away for the next couple generations at least.

And considering that there are still some units (mainly AF/NG/etc.) that still have M16A2s nearly 30 years after its replacement by the M16A4 and then again by the M4 iterations, it's realistically going to be several decades before 6.8 fully replaces 5.56 rifles in every unit armory.

In fact, I suspect some units out there will likely still be using 5.56 M16s/M4s whenever the 6.8's replacement is adopted a ways down the road.

5.56 ammunition and weapons will remain in the US military inventory for years to come.

Hopefully President Trump and DOGE prevent the US military from abandoning the 5.56, especially for the 6.8mm SIG cartridge. Abandoning the 5.56 as a general issue caliber is a completely unnecessary waste of money right now. Hopefully the new administration puts an end to that plan before too much money is wasted.

It is my understanding that the new weapon/ ammo system is intended to be fielded in combat arms formations only ( infantry, etc) and the M4 will still be standard for support troops which greatly outnumber combat troops by a factor of 10-15:1. The M4 and 5.56 isn’t going anywhere for a very long time

The current fielding plan, codified in the basis of issue plan (BOIP), puts the 6.8mm rifles and Automatic Rifles only in specific units within a formation. For example, In an Infantry BN the Infantry PLTs would have M-7s and M-250s, but the support elements in the same BN would have M-4s and M-249s.

That could change in either direction depending on a number of factors.

If the info in the OP is correct it sounds like the Israelis doing similar to some Conventional US units using MK48s in lieu of M-249s in ASTAN.

The Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps and Coast Guard will still be using the 5.56mm cartridge and their legacy platforms for the foreseeable future. LCAAP will continue to churn the cartridges out. And according to others in this post, so will the Army.

Thanks for all the replies, this reduces my confusion with the 6.8.

What about 7.62x51 in our military? Are there any plans to replace the M240B?

https://www.peosoldier.army.mi...-Medium-Machine-Gun/

I like how no one is really talking about the guns being bought, just about the retarded .277 fury, everyone knows is a joke, not being included.

quote:

Originally posted by Sigmund:
Thanks for all the replies, this reduces my confusion with the 6.8.

What about 7.62x51 in our military? Are there any plans to replace the M240B?

https://www.peosoldier.army.mi...-Medium-Machine-Gun/

Things are a bit weird. On paper the 240L is the replacement for the 240B, but, US Army small arms acquisition deviated from some of it's stated plans. I'll try and lay it out as I understand it. If you get confused, don't feel bad, I am too.

I'd been following the Next Gen Squad Weapon(XM-7) development for a while, and for the longest time it looked like it was going to fire LSAT (light weight small arms Telescoped) caseless rounds in 5.56mmor 6.5/6.8, the round was supposed to be similar or smaller to the existing ammo. The rifle was supposed to be a carbine overall length with the ability to integrate electronics with 1 common power supply and potential an onboard round counter. The non-optimized working prototype was around 9 pounds and held 20-25 rounds. There were also Bulpup variants proposed. Things like the caseless ammo and integrated power system and shot counter have been things DoD has wanted for a while, but they haven't gotten to the point of maturity IMHO. If you have access to the slide shows from the Annual NDIA conventions, they have had project updates.

What we got is the XM-7 which has a carbine length barrel, but shoots a cased high pressure round, that is longer and heavier than the existing 5.56mm round. While I expect improved terminal performance (especially at distance) over the 5.56mm round, this rifle seems more like a reskinned Interim Combat Service Rifle (ICSR) with a 6.8mm and 13 inch barrel vs the proposed 16-20" barreled 7.62mm ICSR. The ICSR popped up then Miley was CoS-A wand was supposed to address an unspecified enemy body armor. The M-7 takes standard PIC railed optics including the new one from Vortex, the XM-157. It should be noted that the XM-157 is separate (ish) from the XM-7 program. I"ve handled the XM-7 mock up at the SIG muesum (showroom).

Back to machine guns, the M-250 is the Next Gen Squad Weapon-Automatic Rifle and is slated to replace the M-249 in select formations. If the new 6.8 round does what it's supposed to, it'll out perform the 7.62mm round from the M-240. SOCOM was working a Light Weight Medium Machine Gun-Medium (LMG-M) that shoots a .338 Norma round. It was supposed to be acquired starting in 2019 or so, but I don't know the current status. Of note, SIG submitted for the contract, I handled the mock up of that as well. On the big Army side the Modernization Path (MOD PATH) for the 240 is to continue to lighten the 240L. I suspect that if the SOCOM LMG-M is successful, we'll see what happened with the M4A1, and it will get adopted by the Conventional forces. That last sentence is sheer speculation on my part.

quote:

Originally posted by Vgex:
the retarded .277 fury, everyone knows is a joke

Why do you say that?

The Negev NG7 is an outstanding 308 LMG. The sig is probably a special units procurement as a light assault MG given its lack of true QC barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by JoshNC:
The Negev NG7 is an outstanding 308 LMG. The sig is probably a special units procurement as a light assault MG given its lack of true QC barrel.

Depends which variant they purchased. SIG offers a version with the quick change. For some reason the US Army speced a non-quick change version. Which is odd, given that the current automatic rifle, M249, has always had one.