quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
Open tip bullets?

I worked in inventory, so I only loaded pallets of the stuff with a forklift and had a brief conversation with one of the guys about it. It's also been a couple years now, so I couldn't say for positive. If memory serves, yes it is.

Okay, thanks for what you were able to provide.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

Open tip bullets?

I would assume so, all the long range guys use an OT round, and Berger makes some really good LR bullets.

My old department used FGM that had Sierra Match King bullets with the open tip. (Even though Sierra states the match king ammo is for paper only and do not recommend it on animals. I’ve used the 168 SMK on deer and it never failed to put them down.)

About the ZeroHold feature on Nightforce scopes, I received this response to my question:
“For commercial and civilian optics the Zerohold turret is only available on the ATACR 4-16x42. We have had some government and military contracts that do have that feature on other optics.”

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For those interested and not otherwise knowledgeable about open tip match bullets, a bit of history as I understand it, and a brief discussion of terminal ballistics (effect of the projectile on the target).

Starting in the early twentieth century US military snipers used ordinary ball ammunition with its spitzer (pointed) style full metal jacket bullets. In time, more accurate ammunition was developed for competition use, and snipers were able to use those loads. Originally, though, they were still loaded with FMJ bullets.

At some point, however, it was recognized that the Sierra 168 grain open tip MatchKing (SMK) bullet provided significantly more precise results than the traditional FMJ style, and so that bullet was adopted for the military’s “match” ammunition. Similar bullets in the 175 grain weight range were adopted later for better long range performance. The obvious outgrowth of using those bullets for competitions was the recognition that they and their ammunition would be better for military sniping.

Initially there was some resistance to allowing US snipers to use match ammunition because the small open tip of the bullets was considered by some legal authorities as violating the law of warfare treaty banning expanding bullets that the US observed (although isn’t a signatory to). It was ultimately decided that the bullets did not expand in flesh and were therefore permitted for military use. Military snipers still use ammunition loaded with such bullets for that law of warfare treaty reason.

Although I don’t know the details of why police snipers originally adopted the 168 grain SMK load, it was probably because that’s what the military was using at the time. Some LE snipers were no doubt military sniper veterans and familiar with the load. Based on what I’ve been able to determine from a few references, some (many?) LE agencies do still use that bullet in the 308 Winchester cartridge loading.

So, are open tip bullets effective in sniper applications?
Obviously yes.
But if an agency isn’t bound by international treaties (as US LE agencies are not), are they the best for the purpose of neutralizing deadly threats?
Obviously not, and that’s something literally generations of big game hunters who had never experienced a day of military combat could tell us.

Firearms projectiles cause wounding effects in their targets by direct impact and by transferring their energy to the target. All else being the same, the more energy is transferred, the greater the wounding (and other) effects.

In addition to direct impact, open tip match bullets like the 168 grain SMK transfer much of their energy to a flesh and bone target by becoming unstable and tumbling. Tumbling causes more wounding effects than if the bullet remained stable like a rapier thrust, but it’s not as good as it could be. Depending upon the projectile, tumbling may even be delayed. That’s evidently dependent at least in part by the degree of yaw the bullet is experiencing at the moment of impact with the target.

The 29 ounce can (~4" diameter × 4.7" high) of tomato puree pictured here was struck by a 308 Winchester 168 grain Federal Gold Medal Match bullet from about 50 yards. The impact knocked the can over to allow the puree to partially drain out, but did not move the can any significant distance. Based on the appearance of the exit hole as shown, the bullet evidently exited close to either nose or base first. In any event, the damage to the can was minimal.




The same type of can was struck at a distance of about 95 yards by a 308 Win. 155 grain Hornady A-MAX TAP Precision bullet, an expanding design. (The edges of the entrance hole can be seen about the center of the left edges of the large side pieces of the can.)



I have conducted similar experiments with the same type of tomato puree cans using other Hornady A-MAX or ELD Match bullets, and the results have been virtually the same: the can virtually explodes and large parts of the container are typically found 10-20 yards from the impact site.

Now at this point the obligatory caveat: The terminal ballistics results achieved from shooting at large cans of tomato puree aren’t what will be seen when shooting something like a human target. The experimental test results do, however, validly demonstrate that under the test conditions, expanding bullets like the Hornady ELD Match transfer much more of their energy to the target than Sierra open tip MatchKing bullets do.

Another note is that many Internet videos show realistic ballistic dummy heads being struck by firearms projectiles. A recent one shows a head being struck by a 300 Winchester Magnum bullet similar to the one reportedly used to kill the man who tried to kill President Trump. That video shows the head exploding in a manner similar to my puree cans, and which was not seen in the actual incident. The difference between the dummies and real human heads is that the dummies lack our very tough skin covering that tends to keep things inside the head rather than being scattered over the landscape.

And lastly, I am certainly not saying that open tip match bullets cannot be effective, only that there can be better options, and that opinion is shared by even at least one highly-regarded law enforcement sniping authority who specifically recommends the Hornaday TAP ammunition over the SMK OTM bullet.

Hornady TAP (ballistic tip style bullets) have a poor track record in police shootings. Poor is being generous. It’s horrible.

They were all the rage 20 years ago. Until cops started shooting suspects and the bullets didn’t alter the suspects actions. Lots of large agencies used TAP. I know of no one that still uses it. We maintained some in inventory for use in corrections when we get called there. We ditched it on the road in 2012 after poor ballistic performance in a shooting for Federal bonded. About that time Indiana State Police SRT shot an offender multiple times and he killed a hostage as a result. Both events were in 5.56

TAP expends a lot of energy on impact. If that initial impact is heavy clothing, or barriers of sorts, the round doesn’t create a permanent wound cavity, nor does it get very good penetration. Hence why it does great on ground hogs and Ragu. Gold Medal does a great job. The Hornady TAP Barrier is also quite good.

I started my career as a sniper. I’ve never heard of a shoot that was a bullet failure with Gold Medal match.

I would not expect any load in 223/5.56 to be as effective in a sniper role as anything in 308 Winchester. There are significant ballistic differences between the two cartridges. Rapidly-expanding 0.224" bullets have long been known to be best limited to use on small animals.

Failure(s) of the 223 Remington is something that has been discussed, albeit minimally, in the LE sniper literature I have read. I would also not expect the current ELD TAP round to be as effective through barriers as other loads, so that’s a consideration. But Hornady’s gel test claims hardly show it to be ineffective. In my experience the Hornady 308 “barrier” load isn’t as precise as the A-MAX/ELD TAP loads.

And although it’s just one example and nothing much can be concluded from it, one military sniper whose accounts I read described how one young man he shot with his rifle in combat later walked into a medical treatment facility.

As I recall, the LE sniper who expressed his preference for the 308 TAP ammunition over the traditional SMK load was Derrick Bartlett, the founder of the American Sniper Association for LE snipers. I believe he has some knowledge of the subject.

The Secret Service is not subject to my opinions about anything, but one thing that is indisputable is that some bullets transfer their energy to targets more effectively than others. When even the bullet manufacturers themselves say that nonexpanding match bullets shouldn’t be used for hunting, it’s a mystery to me why they would be chosen for purposes that are more important than filling someone’s freezer with meat. But fortunately my opinions are just that.

Oh, something I forgot. The ammo we made for them at Berger that I moved from the loading building to the main warehouse wasn't .300 Win Mag. It was .338 Lapua. Now, likely as not, they're also using stuff from Berger/Lapua for the .300's, but in the interest of providing correct information, I'm putting that forward.

I also moved around some pallets of Mk262 MOD 1 for SOCOM, so now you know where they get at least some of their stuff, too.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
When even the bullet manufacturers themselves say that nonexpanding match bullets shouldn’t be used for hunting, it’s a mystery to me why they would be chosen for purposes that are more important than filling someone’s freezer with meat. But fortunately my opinions are just that.

Largely because varmint rounds that are repackaged as something other than varmints are unacceptable for the job. The whole 5.56 thing wasn’t a failure in caliber, it was a failure in bullet selection. The .308 flavor TAP rounds perform exactly like their little brothers. The explode against the first contact. The Ragu test shows that. Gold Medal is still favored by LE in various calibers because it works.

As to the “mystery” of why, police snipers look for several things in a round. First is a high degree of accuracy, with a high ballistic coefficient. Varmint rounds never cut it in these cases. The Hornady offers struggle to reach 1 MOA out of guns like GA Precision that shoot .25 MOA all day long with Gold Medal. Another is penetration. Rarely if ever do the police shoot people with sniper rifles who are naked and standing still. The bullet has to also stay together well and not split or fragment to places it’s not supposed to go. All these things combined are why Gold Medal is still king after all these years. And why ballistic tip bullets (outside of not performing well in police shootings) aren’t.

Case studies in point. In the early 2000s, KSP SRT responded to the area of Dry Ridge where a male with various firearms had troopers and deputies pinned down. The suspect would conceal himself in the shadows and fire at officers. An SRT sniper took advantage of an opportunity when the suspect stuck a shotgun out one of the narrow windows in the door. The sniper placed a round through the wall where he believed the suspects head would be. That ended the threat.

A few years later, an SRT Assaulter shot a suspect through a windshield with an 5.56 AR chambered with 69 grain Gold Medal. Round had very little deflection and struck the suspect above the left eye. He was raising a gun to kill an informant at the time. The bad guy was deceased when he was pulled from the vehicle.

A little more recently, a highly publicized sniper shot in Florida shot a hostage taker fatally after the round passed through a computer monitor. Suspect perished instantly, hostage was unharmed.

And the list goes on. Varmint rounds won’t perform the same in any of those cases, and while I have kept specialty rounds in inventory, sometimes fate only allows what you have on your person. And “I don’t have the proper rounds on me isn’t a valid excuse”. Choose a round that will do everything 99 percent of the time.

Lastly, the longer I’m around the more I notice a trend in XYZ does this or XYZ recommends this. Sometimes these things are taken out of context in a business where context is everything. The other is personalities have about a two year shelf life of relevance. Things change and evolve frequently. A lot of personalities recommend a piece of kit of a tactic/technique based on how they did things at their old job. Now, some guys come from places that have government funded labs with nerds that work full time studying this. And they truly are cutting edge. Until they retire or rotate out and that research is no longer funded for them. They then fall back on what they did in the day. I can’t imagine anyone with a moderate level of actual operational experience thinking varmint rounds would be a good idea. Which is why I figure there is missing context there.

I was curious from the beginning what ammunition was used for the shot through the computer monitor. Was it 308 SMK?

Yes

Okay, I know those guys can probably cycle a bolt faster than I can blink, but it surprises me that they would 1) use such a high-recoiling round (slower to get back on target for a second shot) and 2) that they aren't using semi-automatic rifles.

I'd love to hear some insight on this.

quote:

Originally posted by AUTiger89:
1) use such a high-recoiling round (slower to get back on target for a second shot)

Someone more qualified can give insight on the bolt action thing, but I'll take the low-hanging fruit here: They may need to shoot an armored attacker, or shoot through barriers or vehicles. If you don't know what you're going to encounter but you have to win no matter what, a team of many snipers with big rifles shooting large calibers is a good place to start.

quote:

Originally posted by AUTiger89:
Okay, I know those guys can probably cycle a bolt faster than I can blink, but it surprises me that they would 1) use such a high-recoiling round (slower to get back on target for a second shot) and 2) that they aren't using semi-automatic rifles.

I'd love to hear some insight on this.

I can't speak for the .LE uys, but the .MIL folks generally believe that bolt guns are more accurate then semi autos.

quote:

1) use such a high-recoiling round (slower to get back on target for a second shot)

Felt recoil of a .300 Win Mag fired from what looks to be a 15lb plus rifle probably isn't that bad. I'm guessing it's less than the felt recoil of a 7mm Rem Mag from a 7 1/2lb hunting rifle.

Speaking of counter sniping in an urban environment. I have this old rifle called an AI AE. It's very good. But obsolete.

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder:
Speaking of counter sniping in an urban environment. I have this old rifle called an AI AE. It's very good. But obsolete.

What makes you say it's obsolete? AI makes good stuff.

There is a lot of old REM 700, M24 and M40s still running around, they aren't considered obsolete.

quote:

Originally posted by CD228:
What makes you say it's obsolete? AI makes good stuff.

There is a lot of old REM 700, M24 and M40s still running around, they aren't considered obsolete.

Ssssh. The nerds who don't own these rifles may hear you. Everything you just said is inferior, somehow. I have an SSG 69 P4 too.



Technically, it is, that's Version 1.0. Is it great? Yes. Will it still do the job it was built for? Yes. If you need to hit an off switch in a city block... AE.

Owning a high quality rifle will make you honest with yourself, or push you further into denial. If you can't shoot a ragged hole, and it's not your fault, whose is it?

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
And, since I handled some of it during my brief stint there, their ammunition is Lapua match stuff loaded at Berger.

Open tip bullets?

The Lapua match bullet has a tiny open tip by default, but it does not make it a hyper-expansive anti-personnel bullet.

It just happens to have a terminal effect akin to holding a fragmentation grenade in your mouth.

The hole in the tip of an OTM round is the result of the manufacturing process used in producing the bullet. Just passing along some info.

https://sadefensejournal.com/o...listic%20performance.