I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't own any H&K products. H&K doesn't make anything on my wish list. I have no dealings with H&K or their distributors/dealer, therefore I only read about their reputation with USA customers.

I do not want to see any firearms companies run into financial troubles. I hope they pull through OK.

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
The G36 debacle really hurt them too, ja?

The little shooting I did with the G36 impressed me. They ran very well. Same for the USC's, which print in one hole with practically no recoil. Their pistols are for the most part very reliable, and they do have a rabid, raging fanship out there (god forbid one say a bad word about HK within earshot). It's just not a big enough fanbase to keep it going, and HK doesn't cater to its fanbase.

I bought another HK45C not too long ago, not because I'm a rabid HK fan (I'm not), but because it was too good a deal to pass up at the time, and let's face it, who couldn't use an extra handgun in the safe?). Everything ends up going to my kids sooner or later anyway (probably sooner). So it's a kind of investment. And I know the pistol works.

HK's LEM is a great trigger system, I think.

But I do suck and they do hate me, and I can't afford most of their stuff (but would like some P7's), so I'm not so much a fan as a guy who bought a few of their things...and probably won't buy enough more to keep them afloat.

I have the unfortunate job of dealing with a lot of German cnc tool makers. Every last one of them have the attitude that the end user must cater to the manufacturer. In America under a free market the manufacturer caters to the end user or the competition will.
Sounds like H&K feels we should be catering to them.

A sideline anecdote about German engineering/manufacturing.

In a former job, I worked selling guitars and related equipment and sold H&K amplifiers (Hughes & Kettner), from Germany, of course. The buy-in was such that we had to stock certain models, including some of the high end stuff. One of the 100 watt heads came with a footswitch... with a no-shit 50 foot cable. My boss, who'd owned four music stores in Nashville in the 80's and 90's, had never seen such a thing and couldn't make the logic of such a thing work in his brain.

So he called up Hughes & Kettner and after a fair amount of time on the phone and talking to various people, got put on the phone with some guy who was, I guess part of their production team. He asked him "what's the logic behind a 50 foot cable for a footswitch for an amp, that if played on stage, would likely be mic'ed and run through a house PA anyways?" The guy replied with "Ok, so you're on stage, ja? Und you have your amp behind ze drum riser und you need to run ze footswitch cable around ze drum riser und down to ze front of the stage und still have room und schlack to clear ze pedal board, ja?" That's pretty much where he stopped relating what the guy told him. In their mind, the thing was designed to be able to handle arena rock ala KISS or Aerosmith of the late 70's and that's exactly what they built the thing to do. Nevermind that 99% of all users would never ever need that length of cable and it would be stupid to supply a shorter one, or a detachable one ("zis is extra failure point, fixed cable is better").

I... umm... bought one of those amps from a friend and have yet to undo the 20' length he coiled it into and zip-tied in place some 15 years ago. It's still too much. But Zee Germans that designed it knew better!

quote:

Originally posted by WARPIG602:
And yet I have at least 10 people wanting a P30L and havent seen them for months.

I'm waiting for one as well (don't have one backordered or anything, though) and have seen rumors that HK is trying to fill a military contract order before focusing on runs of guns for public sale.

and I, too, only see VP9's sitting on the shelves everywhere.

I have three or four HK pistols I want, though. I'm sure they'll pull through, eventually.

quote:

Originally posted by WARPIG602:
Wile its getting better, HK seems to be like 5 years behind the "trending" curve. On the bright side, at least when their products are released, they are usually without major issues.

This is a very German tendency. I work with Austrians as an advisor on heavy equipment. The process by which they follow in manufacturing is commendable in someways and painful in others. Their stuff is most often top shelf. Downside that takes time and money. Sometimes so much time, they cant keep up with a changing market. It is like steering the Titanic with a wooden rudder. They make sure their stuff is right and by right I mean how they intend it to be. That may or may not be what their customers view as "right". That is very much a German trait. Lastly is manufacturing arrogance. They live largely off their reputation of excellence and it is mostly warranted, but that arrogance clouds product improvement. Anyone who has worked with Germans (or Austrians) can identify with HK's drawbacks and why they are struggling in a market that doesn't play by the same rules.

quote:

Originally posted by Ryanp225:
I have the unfortunate job of dealing with a lot of German cnc tool makers. Every last one of them have the attitude that the end user must cater to the manufacturer. In America under a free market the manufacturer caters to the end user or the competition will.
Sounds like H&K feels we should be catering to them.

I think that attitude is more of a European one and not just German. I worked for a manufacturer in Belgium for several years who felt the same way. The Chinese will build anything you want them to. Europeans, in my experience, are very proud and arrogant people who feel like you should only want what the offer.

Not only did the Belgians basically Regis I put from customers, especially US ones, but the products they did make often took forever to get.

quote:

Originally posted by LDD:

quote:

Originally posted by 3/4Flap:
So what's the real problem with HK?

Comments?

HK's problem has always been that they are too German.

That means a couple things:

1) Their products tend to be over-engineered.
2) Their economic model relies on German socialism: i.e. we don't need to take economic risks because the German government will always buy from us.
3) Because of #2 they never saw America as a primary market.
4) They don't understand the American consumer at the gov't or consumer level.

I can give you two examples of 4). I spoke with someone who was deeply connected in the American special forces community. Navy specifically. He told me of a story in which he sat in a meeting between HK and members of his unit. The HK engineers asked for feedback on the MP7. Members of this unit proceeded to explain how they'd modified their MP7s to do a better job in the field and the HK engineers were appalled. How dare these uncouth rednecks dirty the sacred cow with their pragmatic paws?

I once called HK to get an MSG90 stock to put on my HK91. The MSG90 stock had a better buffer, and more adjust-ability than the standard HK91 stock, but cost and weighed less than the fantastically expensive PSG-1 stock.

When I called HK, the person who picked up the phone said "We don't sell those because we don't want people putting them on HK91s."



There is absolutely no reason to have this attitude other than you don't want to make money. I already had the HK91, and the HK91 operating system is the same as the MSG90s, so there is no technical disconnect or additional legal liability.

[The MSG90 was never imported for civilians before 1989, and may not have even existed at the time the import ban came down, therefore there were never any factory MSG90s for Americans to put MSG90 stocks on.]

That's an amazing story.

About the diametric opposite of a capitalist mindset : ID a market + design product + sell product = make money / profit. Look at what Magpul has done over the last 15 years as an example (I'm no Magpul fan but am impressed by how they have a built business...)

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I think they're starting to listen. The VP9-B being a prime example. HK CS historically has been touted as non-civillian friendly. I think thats changing and I think we'll see CS inline with makers now that some things are moving stateside.

I dont know that we'll ever see HK stop the over engineering or endless R&D but I wont really knock them for that. I think we all know a company that could spend time putting its guns through development phase before releasing them to market.

quote:

Originally posted by WARPIG602:
I think they're starting to listen. The VP9-B being a prime example. HK CS historically has been touted as non-civillian friendly. I think thats changing and I think we'll see CS inline with makers now that some things are moving stateside.

I hope it's not a case of too little, too late.

"Sometimes you've got to hit rock bottom"?

They sell a polymer striker pistol, an AR15, AR10, polymer blowback SMG, and their newest firearm is a SCAR knockoff. None of those models are price competitive either. I wonder how they are having cash flow problems.

HK is a weird company when it comes to the American consumer. We have guys that fawn all over the 416. I had one for about 2 years and finally turned it in for a 14 inch gun that can be shot much faster.

The same guys that drink the HK kool aid, hate SIG because they don't want to be "BETA" testers. Then you point out that the USP shares no parts with the original. And that the 416 is on it's seventh evolution and many of the parts do not match the older guns. The original 416s had a problem with small parts breakage. But, that's ok because you can't be cool with a 416.

But, I saw the same thing with the MP5 back in the day. It you ran your guns hard, you constantly broke locking rollers. It was just the cost of doing business.

This isn’t a debate in my opinion: the paddle mag release kills their pistols in the US market. I know the paddle has a very rabid and committed fan base, but its still the minority no matter how loudly they shout about its supremacy.

The VP9 was finally released with a button mag release, but that’s HK’s least competitive gun imo. The G19 and the M&P 2.0 4” are much smaller and better suited for carry imo. Do the offer the VP9SK with a button? Nope. What about other guns such as the P2000/P2000sk, the USP or the 45 Compact with a button? Nope. Those are all great carry options in america, but they don’t give us the mag release we want. Instead they give us the mag release on a range gun only? That makes no sense.

That’s their problem imo. There will always be a market for premium priced products, but it’s a much smaller pool of customers you’re drawing from. You need to give those folks exactly what they want and they’ll throw their cash at you. If you’re going to ignore a large % of potential buyers in The US, you’re limiting your potential. I wonder how many pistols HK sells each year, then I wonder how many pistols are purchased in the US total each year. My gut tells me they’re not fishing in the largest pond in the world.

LDD’s post helps me make sense of my frustration with H&K. I felt what he described, but never really knew what it was or how to put it into words. Gun makers are going out of their way to give us options. We don’t have small, medium and large anymore. We have optics, no optics, thin fat tall short, long slide, short slide, extended mags, you name it, we’re given options. HK, still making the same guns they always have. When they did come out with a striker fired gun, they made the damn thing too big and with a mag release only like 5% want. No options equals none of my money.

quote:

Originally posted by esdunbar:


The VP9 was finally released with a button mag release, but that’s HK’s least competitive gun imo. The G19 and the M&P 2.0 4” are much smaller and better suited for carry imo. Do the offer the VP9SK with a button? Nope. What about other guns such as the P2000/P2000sk, the USP or the 45 Compact with a button? Nope. Those are all great carry options in america, but they don’t give us the mag release we want. Instead they give us the mag release on a range gun only? That makes no sense.

I carry my VP9 everyday with no problem. Much smaller I suppose in the eyes of the beholder but I dont really see it. There is no dimension on the VP9 that is more than .4 of an inch bigger than M&P.

As to why they dont update their older lines with different parts, why? Nobody is buying a P2000 anymore. Same reason Glock doesnt update the Gen3. Id be willing to bet the VP9 surpasses or has surpassed the sales of any handgun they've released, at least where the civilian market is concerned. That probably why they chose the button release for that gun, and its still in current production. In typical HK fashion, Im sure we'll see it on the SK next, assuming the sales numbers of the VP9-B support it.

P2000 release in 2001
USP release in 1990-ish
P30 and 45 were release in 2006

Now:
Glock 19 release in 1988
Sig 229 released in 1992 with the 228 well before that
M&P was released in 2005

Obviously I’m not buying the argument that the HK guns I referenced are not selling anymore because they’re old. HK’s rear of the slide decocker is the best in the industry. They are the only ones making great DA/SA polymer pistols imo. They have plenty of competitive advantages to use. What they haven’t done is do jackshit to add options/features to their guns like the other companies have. The lack of mag release options being the one that personally keeps me from owning their pistols. Heck, even Walther came through with a button mag option. The Walther P99 was released in 2001. The updated PPQ was 2011 and then a couple years later in 2014 they added the button...that was FIVE years ago they added the button.

I think a gun like the P2000 would be a great CCW choice. I’d personally carry one over a G19 if I could get the mag release I want. Where was the 2008-ish update of the P200 with a button mag, factory extended mags and a better trigger? That’s what they needed to do. It’s not rocket science. But alas, that window is closing on the CCW market for guns like the P2000 and SK. The G43x and Sig 365 are making an impact on the market. HK’s problem isn’t that they aren’t giving customers a button today, it’s that they didn’t give customers a button 5 to 10 years ago (all those lost sales) and keep updating said guns based on market demands. Nope, you will buy what we have given you! LDD’s post gives me insight into why they didn’t, and that’s why I think they’re in trouble.

And I get that the VP9 can be carried. I have carried my G45 plenty, so I hear you man. The fact is, not many folks want to carry guns with grips that long. That we do, doesn’t mean we still aren’t in the small minority.

They need to figure out how to reproduce the P7M8 again and somehow make the price around $1200. They would sale faster than they could make them.

SIG SAUER: You want it, so we made it.*

Glock: We want it, so we made it.

HK: We made it, so you want it.


*but in a couple years we'll make a new version which may or may not be backwardly compatible with the version you just bought.

quote:

Originally posted by LDD:
SIG SAUER: You want it, so we made it.*

Glock: We want it, so we made it.

HK: We made it, so you want it.


*but in a couple years we'll make a new version which may or may not be backwardly compatible with the version you just bought.

LIKE!

quote:

Originally posted by LDD:
SIG SAUER: You want it, so we made it.*

Glock: We want it, so we made it.

HK: We made it, so you want it.


*but in a couple years we'll make a new version which may or may not be backwardly compatible with the version you just bought.

Good!

It's always a good idea to sell people what they want rather than what you want to sell them. Somebody needs to figure out how to have SIG's willingness to make what people want to buy with H&K's insistence on quality. Old School SIG's WERE that way.........