What are the chances of finding one of each in the same caliber,
That are equally as accurate as 150 yards ?

Is it reasonable to imagine as an example
To find a bolt action in .243 Winchester and an AR style semi auto rifle that
Would both keep
Six rounds in a row
On a 5 inch circle at 150 yards ?

Using the same grain weight ammo.

I will be interested in the responses, but when I had a 308 Winchester AR-10 type rifle and it functioned properly, I had no problem keeping the vast majority of shots within 1 minute of angle (~1.5 inches at 150 yards). The same is true of the Tikka T3x TAC A1 rifle chambered for the same cartridge that I own now. The Tikka is generally even more precise than that.

The first large variable is the quality of the rifle, and then the quality of the ammunition. Five inches at 150 yards is about 3.5 minutes of angle, and that should be achievable for any quality rifle of either type with suitable ammunition.

Added: In fact, even with crappy ammo like bulk M193 or similar 223 Remington, I would not be surprised if both my Tikka T3 and JP Precision AR-type rifle could satisfy your requirement.

Semi-autos are generally presumed to be less accurate/precise/repeatable/whatever than bolt actions. That is, however, a generalization. In fact there are many semi-autos that are as accurate, or nearly so (such that your 5" target at 150 yards would be hit by every shot) as a bolt action in the same caliber and using the same ammunition.

So what are the chances of both rifles being equally accurate? Quite good in fact. As sigfreund said, keeping six shots on a 5" target at that distance is not a difficult task. I would add a third variable to his list though (besides the quality of the rifle and that of the ammunition): the skill of the person behind the rifle.

If you select the right rifles, absolutely.

LMT has a 243 barrel for their semi auto. And most bolt guns can meet the requirement.

I agree that shooter skill may overall be the greatest reason why we wouldn’t see someone put six shots in a row into a 5 inch circle at 150 yards. I’m reminded of that on every rare occasion I go to a public rifle range. But that is usually the fault of the shooter, not the rifle and ammunition, assuming the latter two are halfway decent.

One thing I’ll say about shooter skill, though, is that it includes not just inherent physical ability, but the things and techniques I frequently see them use. One of the last times I was at a public range, a man and a young woman were there and she was evidently trying to more or less zero a rifle for hunting. The man had her shooting from a rolled-up coat that was soft and squishy and provided little consistent support. In addition the gun was an obvious light weight model chambered for some magnum cartridge. Lastly, he didn’t (or perhaps couldn’t) provide any guidance on how to shoot the rifle as well as was possible. How did she do? As the expression goes, “You don’t even have to guess.”

Many new shooters, and especially women, can shoot very well if they’re given the right tools and training to make it happen, but unfortunately most aren’t, and they don’t even know what they don’t know.

I have been shooting for more decades than I care to remember, but I still continue to learn ways to improve, or are at least worth considering for possible improvement. With the vast amounts of information available at our fingertips today it’s not necessary to wait that long to become a competent shooter, but it does take some study and then practice to see what actually works, and why.

Before Remington went tits up, they sold an AR chambered in .243 called the R25.
Cant help you beyond that with regard to quality, accuracy or reliability.
I believe Wilson Combat has a .243 AR in production.

I must be missing something in the intent of this post. If the accuracy standard is 6 rounds in a 5" circle at 150 yards the number of gun combinations that can do that is huge. I don't like to have a zillion calibers around, but on things I own and know the answer personally that would include .308, .223, 6.5CM, .22lr, 7.62x39, .204. I can't say that I have done it so its just a guess, but I would presume I could also get .22wm guns I have to do it with a bit of ammo testing. Same for .30-06.
SO... there must be more to this question than I understand.

I don't think you are "missing "
Any aspect of the question.

But I don't know about the intricacies of rifles ,ammo and the ballistics involved.

Just wondering if someone new to the whole deal would require three rifles or three ammo's
To accomplish a single task.

Your reply is appreciated.

The whole subject here is extremely complex, and the only way we learn is to ask either directly as questions or by researching through other sources. Just keep asking, and I'm sure you will get some responsive, informative answers.

Its pretty clear to me that your accuracy standard can be achieved my many, many rifles of varying types. Many/most? of the people that offer accuracy guarantees on their rifle products usually set a standard of .5moa or 1moa. Not always for the same number of shots but close enough given your standard is way bigger than that and a rifle that will do a 1.0moa 3shot group has a better than 99.99% chance of doing a 6 shot group inside your standard.

quote:

Originally posted by bendable:
What are the chances of finding one of each in the same caliber,
That are equally as accurate as 150 yards ?

Using the standard of 5" target at 150 yards, both action types can produce roughly the same accuracy. This is a very generous accuracy requirement for modern centerfire rifles. For a good rifle/ammo/sights/shooter system in calm winds and a stable shooting position, the shooter would not only hit the target every time, but could state in which quadrant the rounds will impact. A shooter with poorly developed marksmanship skills might be lucky to land even one round in the 5" target.

The real-world accuracy capabilities of bolt action systems exceeds that of comparable semi-auto systems. Semi-auto rifles have more internal parts movement, gas movement, and vibration than bolt actions. Furthermore, we shooters don't have the skills to completely control a semi-auto's additional movement and vibration. Occasionally a shooter will effectively match a bolt action's with a semi-auto, but it won't occur on a consistent basis.

I have rifles chambered in 6 Creedmoor, which is similar to 243 Winchester. But the 6 Creedmoor is better designed to handle modern match-grade bullets. 243 Win is a great caliber, but 6CM takes the accuracy and long-distance capabilities to a higher level.

Here's my current best with an AR10 in 6CM. 525 yards, 5 rounds with a vertical spread of 2.38 inches and a horizontal spread of 4 inches. The vertical is what really matters to me, as winds at my range are hard to predict and allow for.



Here's my current best with a bolt action in 6CM. 603 yard, 5 rounds with vertical spread of 2.88 inches and a horizontal spread of 3.5 inches.


Both of these rifles are capable of hitting 5" targets well beyond 150 yards, but I'm more capable of accomplishing this with a bolt action.

Even a $350 Remington Woodsmaster is plenty accurate to put 6 shots in 5" at 150 yards.

Wow Fritz,
Do you always use the exact same ammo in both rifles ?

Are they custom hand loads or just premium match grade ?

And
Did you build these rifles or just buy'em ?
Thank you for taking the time to
Enlighten

Are you dead set on an AR type if not an M1a and your choice of bolt action 308’s. Way more accurate that you are asking.

I have 2 AR15s and one rem700 in 223, and they can both do 5 rnds in 5” @150. Nothing fancy, factory barrels..

Although the bolt gun shoots less than 1MOA with hand loaded ammo

quote:

Originally posted by bendable:
Do you always use the exact same ammo in both rifles ?
Are they custom hand loads or just premium match grade ?
Did you build these rifles or just buy'em ?

These rifles were built by a local gunsmith from components I purchased and provided to my 'smith.
Both targets above were shot with factory Hornady 108 ELD-M ammo. There are other factory ammo options which shoot very well, too. It's a matter of testing a few different manufacturer's loads, then sticking with what works. A talented handloader will produce ammo that shoots with greater accuracy than factory ammo.

Defiance action, Bartlein barrel, Grayboe stock, Triggertech trigger, Nightforce optics.



Black Rain AR10 receiver set & BCG, Bartlein barrel, Wilson Combat trigger, Magpul stock, Nightforce optics.



These rifles are expensive enough that many shooters cannot justify the investment. But there are lower cost options that shoot very well.

******
I used 6 Creedmoor as a caliber example, as you stated 243 Winchester in your original post. There are other options for comparing bolt action to semi-autos.

308 Winchester has been around long enough that manufacturers really know how to make rifles and ammo. Recoil is the highest of the options I'll discuss now. Recoil is definitely a consideration for precision shooting, especially with a semi-auto. I own a 308 bolt action and have shot a number of 308 semi-autos.

6.5 Creedmoor (and 260 Remington) is a good option. The best 6.5mm bullets completely outclass 308 in flight ballistics, and with less recoil. But 6.5mm barrels have about 1/2 the life of 308 barrels -- something that high-volume shooters should consider. 6.5 Creedmoor has similar accuracy as 6 Creedmoor, but is a little harder to shoot due to higher recoil.

6 Creedmoor (and 243 Winchester) has the lowest recoil for chamberings based around a 308-sized case. It's noticeably more pleasant to shoot than 6.5 Creedmoor and 308 Winchester. But 6mm barrels might have only 1/4 the life of 308 barrels.

You should really consider 223 Remington. Really light recoil. Ammo is almost always available, and there are many brands & bullet types to choose from. Accuracy can be outstanding. Barrel life is on par with 308 Winchester. Match-grade ammo costs are substantially less than that of the 6mm, 6.5mm, and 308 cartridges.

If your target shooting is almost always closer than 400-500 yards, look at 223 rifles.

I have boatloads of 223 AR15 target pictures, but I'll pass on them for now. I can shoot an AR15 almost as accurately as my bolt action -- for a few shots, when the stars are aligned, and I'm not being an idiot. But a heavy-ish 223 bolt action with a suppressor is really pleasant to shoot.

We're all guilty of only showing pictures of our best targets. Here's from a day with my 223 bolt action where I documented maybe 100 rounds. No deleted pictures, no photoshop to eliminate the bad shots, no warmup shots, no shots off target to get the barrel used to different types of ammo.

12" square steel plates at 410 yards. 5 rounds of Federal GMM 69 on each target. No aiming dot -- just trying to put the rounds on the center of the plates, and do my best guess for that day's changing breezes. The rifle has a Defiance action with Proof Research barrel.



Consider 223 rifles.

At a recent long distance class, the instructor said something to the effect of, “Bolt action rifles are much easier to shoot well. You really have to ‘drive’ a semi-auto rifle and this is a perishable skill. To be successful, you need to shoot a lot and recently.”

This is just my interpretation, but I took away from his comments that results with a semiauto would be much more dependent on shooter skill. You might have two rifles capable of the same accuracy, but the shooter might have to work a lot harder to get that accuracy out of the semiauto.

Interesting that your instructor evidently said basically the same thing about autos as fritz. That is not something I would have guessed on my own, but it's good to be aware of.

quote:

Originally posted by bendable:

Is it reasonable to imagine as an example
To find a bolt action in .243 Winchester and an AR style semi auto rifle that
Would both keep
Six rounds in a row
On a 5 inch circle at 150 yards ?

Using the same grain weight ammo.

5 inch circle at 150 yards? With good ammo you should be able to easily find both a bolt action and a semi auto to meet that criteria?

Frankly if you were seeking a precision oriented barrel on both setups, half that size should be obtainable.