I just don’t see that target at 25 yards like I used to be able to. I was trying to adjust my sights and these old eyes and old glasses have a hard time. Not only can I not see the bullseye, I surely can’t see the hole the bullet makes in the paper.

I think maybe a flip-to-side magnifier and spotting scope would be a huge help. Does that seem like a good idea? Brands to consider? Brands to avoid? Better advice is appreciated.

quote:

Originally posted by mark123:
I just don’t see that target at 25 yards like I used to be able to. I was trying to adjust my sights and these old eyes and old glasses have a hard time. Not only can I not see the bullseye, I surely can’t see the hole the bullet makes in the paper.

I think maybe a flip-to-side magnifier and spotting scope would be a huge help. Does that seem like a good idea? Brands to consider? Brands to avoid? Better advice is appreciated.

What optic do you have on your rifle?

quote:

Originally posted by SIG228:
What optic do you have on your rifle?

Holosun HE403B-GR on one and regular iron sights on the other.

I just want to see the target at 25 yards. A couple hundred isn’t even on the table.

quote:

Originally posted by mark123:
I just want to see the target at 25 yards. A couple hundred isn’t even on the table.

Sounds like a magnifier would help you out.

quote:

Originally posted by IndianaBoy:

quote:

Originally posted by mark123:
I just want to see the target at 25 yards. A couple hundred isn’t even on the table.

Sounds like a magnifier would help you out.

I may grab a cheapie 3x just to see if that’s enough. I know optics isn’t something to be cheap about but I’ll probably have to go through some trial and error before figuring which will work for me.

I have a Holosun HM3X on my Aero Precision build.
Very pleased.

quote:

Originally posted by mark123:
I may grab a cheapie 3x just to see if that’s enough. I know optics isn’t something to be cheap about but I’ll probably have to go through some trial and error before figuring which will work for me.

I have very limited experience with magnifiers, and I've never owned one. That said, the cheap ones I've looked through were horrible. They were awkward and added a bunch of weight to the rifle, and the optical clarity was so poor that it inhibited my ability to see more than it helped...almost like trying to take a picture through a pair of binoculars. Remember that you're now effectively doubling the amount of glass between you and the target, so every optical deficiency is going to be amplified.

Personally, if I needed magnification I'd rather go LPVO or fixed-magnification prism sight than a red dot with a magnifier.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
... Personally, if I needed magnification I'd rather go LPVO or fixed-magnification prism sight than a red dot with a magnifier.

Is your opinion different for a home defense gun?

I figured the magnifier would only be for the range.

quote:

Originally posted by mark123:

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
... Personally, if I needed magnification I'd rather go LPVO or fixed-magnification prism sight than a red dot with a magnifier.

Is your opinion different for a home defense gun?

I figured the magnifier would only be for the range.

I run unmagnified red dots or irons on all my ARs, including my HD setup. I definitely wouldn't use on on an HD gun, as it would only be an encumbrance at the distances involved.

I did have a 4-12x on a target gun at one point, but I've kinda migrated to bolt-actions for that stuff and no longer have that rifle.

The red dots we have now would have been pretty slick for me about 25 years ago.
Now my vision isn't what it used to be and getting worse.

I went through buy and try on a few setups.
Red dot, RD and magnifier, 1-6, 1-8.
I'm using the 1-8 and will just stay with that.
Trying to save up for a NF NX8 1-8 to replace the Primary Arms.

quote:

Originally posted by mark123:
I was trying to adjust my sights and these old eyes and old glasses have a hard time.

While a flip-to-side magnifier might help on that one rifle, it sounds like a new pair of glasses with a more accurate prescription could be an even bigger help. That would be around the same cost as a decent 3x magnifier, and would allow you to see better in general, even beyond just when shooting your rifle.

That said, I do have a a spotting scope for use when zeroing at longer distances, as well as a flip to side 3x magnifier on one of the ARs to expand its flexibility/capability. Both have their uses. But I'd look at addressing the underlying issue here first.

Assuming he already did that, being the obvious answer, what would be a good next step in your estimation?

Since it sounds like closer range home defense (<25 yards) is his primary concern, I'd start with a spotting scope before a magnifier. The magnifier won't be of much use at room distances, so it'd just be unnecessary weight and bulk on the rifle.

A spotting scope would help him see his groups while zeroing either his red dot rifle or iron sight rifle, plus would allow him to push out the zeroing even further than just 25 yards, if so desired. (A 25 yard zero for an AR is not ideal, with a 50 or 100 yard zero being much better options, though there are adjusted targets that can allow you to get 99% of a 50 or 100 yard zero while shooting at 25 yards.)

And you can get much higher magnification than 3x on a spotting scope.

Mine's just an inexpensive Bushnell spotting scope that I got as a gift about 15 years ago, but it does just fine out to several hundred yards.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
… (A 25 yard zero for an AR is not ideal, with 50 or 100 yards being much better options, though there are adjusted targets that can allow you to get 99% of a 50 or 100 yard zero while shooting at 25 yards.) .

I have to get it zeroed at 25 before i dare go 50. The red dot isn’t even on paper at 25 at its current setting. Thanks for the tips.

If you want to zero for 50 yards, try using a target like this (or similar) at 25:


(This is intended to be expanded to fit a standard 8.5x11 sheet of paper when printed. You should see "fit to page" or "expand to fit" or similar in your print menu when you go to print the image.)

This type of target will get you 99% of a 50 yard zero at 25 yards. You can then fine tune at 50. You can find the same type of targets for 100 yard zeros at 25 yards too.

Whereas if you zero on the bullseye of a standard target at 25 yards, you'll then be shooting several inches high at 50 yards (and even more at 100) so you'll have a lot more downward adjustment to make once you push it out a bit.

A 50 or 100 yard zero (even if shot at 25) offers a much flatter trajectory for normal shooting distances.

quote:

Originally posted by mark123:
The red dot isn’t even on paper at 25 at its current setting.

If your red dot isn't even on paper at 25, then try boresighting it. Take the upper off your AR. Remove the BCG. Put the upper on a stable surface, holding it down with something if needed. (A rifle rest is even better.) Look down the barrel to center a specific object in the middle of the bore. Then without moving the upper, adjust the red dot to be on the same object.

Or, if you can't swing that, try mechanically centering your red dot. Turn the windage screw all the way one direction until it stops. Then turn it back the other direction, counting the clicks until it stops. This tell you the total number of clicks of windage adjustment in the sight. Halve that, and dial back in that number of halved clicks. This should be mechanically centered windage. Repeat that process with elevation. That will have the red dot at the mechanical center, both left/right and up/down.

Either of these techniques should result in you being on paper to start (barring some other major issue like a grossly misaligned mount/rail, loose mounting screws, a massive flinch, etc.)

Thanks. I’ll skip the magnifier.

I’ll try the sighting target next time I go.

Bore sighting at 25 is how I start.
Center the target in the bore.
Center the dot on the target then dial the reticle down 4.5 MOA or 9 clicks.
Then go out to 100 and confirm, usually a few clicks to finish zeroing.
I picked up a 20-80 spotting scope from amazon for about $100, good enough for up to 100 yds and I can mount my phone to it to view the image.

Might want to update your prescription for your glasses as well

For many people it's hard to distinguish .223 holes in paper targets at 25 yards. Black targets are pretty much out of the question. Lighter colored paper works better, especially if backlit. The best feedback comes from Shoot-N-See type targets. Regardless of target type, after enough holes it becomes difficult to determine where the last round landed.

A spotting scope will tell you where shots landed, but you must get off the rifle and look through the scope. It's better to have another person on the spotting scope to provide near-real-time feedback.

Your best feedback on bullet impact location and technique for a shot-by-shot basis is having the optical capabilities to see each impact. For most of us, and for all but the closest target distances, this means a magnified optic of at least reasonable quality. Otherwise you fall into the challenge of "2 shots landed way left -- I wonder what occurred there? And which shots were those?"