hr,
With all due respect to all the great advice i have got here on going to all sbr,i agree on the colt sbr.

I was asst. customer service for all sears stores in the bay area for years,up until the robbery.So i savvy sales and what folks say or do or represent to sell an item.Be it cars,houses,etc.

I then got back into my gun hobby once i got out of california.

My point is this,and i only type this in the vein of you gents already know this.I hate being upside down in a gun deal.I dont mind breaking even,or even shipping on my dime.

But i hate to pay for a rifle,or any pistol,and shoot it,and then it is 20 % less.During the heyday of obama,i bought and sold and flipped a few guns.

S W pc guns and some colts went crazy.And i was fortunate to be in the right place at the right time on some guns.

But i know if the time would come and i had to sell a colt sbr, all i have to say is its a colt sbr,as it came from factory.

I have not followed the sbr market,or what can be added or taken off etc.Thats why i came here and boy i hit the jackpot with advice.I always buy with the the thought of what is this gun worth if i shoot it.

I dont plan on selling the sbr guns i get.
The other brands mentioned are awsome,like the b&t,the cmmg,etc.

I worked part time in a local gun store for 10 years,and saw guys cry when they came to trade nice guns or sell outright hardly used guns..

You guys know name brand guns always brought more in trade or sale.

I agree about the name colt.I agree there are better guns ,but they cost more.I have found some colt sbr guns for around a 1000 a gun.Maybe a little less if i add some uppers in diffrent calibers,and a couple lowers to register.

I know,because i am really picky about keeping my firearms clean and have all the gun store cleaning equipment,the colt sbr will look close to new,barring any hard bumps or nicks.

And i am just giving my opinion and experience,but a flat out 100% colt sbr ,if it is in good shape,will bring
85% or better if i ever sell.I think it will.I love the b&t gun.But it is 500 to 800 more.

the all the other sbr guns are good,and i am very thankful for all the opinions.please keep the discussion going.

After i go to you tube and watch the recoil,and sift through the bs posts,and the serious posts, i still lean towars a colt sbr,100% colt. I could buy the other more expensive guns with money i get,from selling my high end cz,dan wesson sw,guns.

But all i want is a few sbr guns.! very very helpful gent,advised me to get a few lowers,and different cal.uppers.That is a great idea for me,as i have land in the dakotas,and one section is prairie dog city.

But all i need or want is a 9mm sbr that i can shoot out to 100 feet or so.

I did not think i would enjoy this thread this much.you guys are great,and i have always said this forum is the best in the internet gun world of forums.

I think someone mentioned it before in this thread about the Colt being blowback operated, maybe someone who has and shoots a Colt 9mm AR a lot could weigh in on recoil. I have shot a few and from my memory the 9mm kicked about the same as a 5.56.

If you wanted/needed less recoil there are better options over the Colt.

I only mention this again because of your OP with all the surgeries.

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:
I really like CMMG stuff and I'm sure the gun is great. But I can also assure you that it will not hold its value in the same way that a factory Colt will...per the original post.

You may be right, however, I’m really not concerned about what difference there might be in the “holding value” comparison in this case. I paid less than a Colt would cost, and it is every bit as good as the Colt IMHO (and I own two Colts).

To each his own, and the OP can make up his own mind about value. Just giving him opinions on options.

OK, I personally would not care a hoot about the difference in 'holding value'. And I'm sure the CMMG runs fine. But the original post does exactly that. Not a chance they are the same. The original post doesn't ask about original cost, just "will not devalue". No gun can do that but the colt will be way better.

I understand the concern about holding value, but that is less of a concern if you are less likely to sell it.

Let me put it this way, there's lots of folks here saying that an MP5, MPX, or APC9 are softer recoiling, and for you it sounds like recoil is a make or break deal. So, unless you have a chance to shoot several of these guns side by side for comparison, I'd stick with that list.

Let's say that any of that list will depreciate by 20%, but a colt by "only" 15%. Now, if you buy the colt, it aggravates your injury, and then have to flip it to one of the list above, you are out a net 35%. However, if you got the better gun in the first place, it is only 20%.

However, all that is hypothetical, and I think all the listed guns, and the Colt, will have similar value retention. Which brings you back to that same short list.

It sounds like you really want one, but unless you have a chance to shoot a Colt extensively prior to buying, I would be wary of a blowback gun with that kind of nerve damage. Buy once, cry once.

An MP5 clone is what you are looking for. They are VERY soft recoiling. The AR 9mm would be disappointing if shot side by side. They just don't compare. In fact you might even find the Colt painful as it is a very sharp blowback.

If resell is a real concern I would wager the farm that Colt AR will hold it's value much less than an MP5 or B&T

Andy,thanks sir.So i am going to back to the b&t gun.Or a mp 5 clone.The you tube guys must be shooting reloads as there are some cz evo s. colt posts,and the recoil looks almost non existent,like a 22.

It's not that the AR 9mm would be a cannon, but I find the impulse sharp compared to the delayed blowback of the MP5 which I would call more of a push. The APC uses a hydraulic buffer which has a similar effect.

I also own an Evo. It shoots fairly softly due to the huge bolt carrier (something like 1.2 pounds) even though it is direct blowback. I'd put it in the middle.

Sorry to hear of your medical concerns, but glad you are able to still get out to shoot. As others have mentioned, I too am concerned for you about recoil from a blowback 9mm AR.

I have no experience with them, but CMMG has a relatively new gun out, called the Guard. It uses factory GLOCK magazines and a radial delayed blowback system with reduced felt recoil.

They offer it in pistol, rifle and SBR configurations from the factory. If I were going this route, I would get a pistol, then send in the paperwork for the sbr wile keeping the pistol to shoot.

I'd hate for you to buy a factory SBR, wait, finally get it, go shoot it and find out the recoil causes too much pain. Do you by chance have access to any of the aforementioned guns to try before buying?

I don't know where you are, but I have a 10.5" 9mm blowback AR pistol if you're in my neck of the woods that you can try.

andy,
Thanks sir.I really have thought last night,i have around 25000 rounds of wwb ammo,fmj,jhp etc.Plus 100 grain self defense,a lot of ammo in a lot of calibers.

All i want is a rifle to shoot the 9 mm.

I dont know what 9mm ammo is bringing,but i hate to shoot really good jhp ammo at a beer can.
If i could get 50 to 60 % of what this ammo is bringing,i should sell the fmj,and a lot of the jhp,and get a longer barreled 9mm ar.

Guys,is the total length the main factor in what is legal to own without a stamp?

Can i just get a cz or colt 9mm with a 16 inch barrel,for shooting the fmj ammo i have?

And sell all my 10 mm,357 357,and self protection ammo.

Dont need 20 to 30 thousand rounds of ammo for self protection.

I went the tactical brace route with my Z5P for three reasons,

I can carry it in the vehicle with a CCL as it's a pistol.
No need to engrave.
Can cross state lines, (specifically my property where I do most of my shooting anyway) without a 5320 form.

The roller lock action is very soft shooting and I think would be more than comfortable for you.

P1000366 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/146780422@N05/][/url]

grey,thats what came to me last night.And believe me,texting with you sig pro's all around the country made a me feel like we were all sitting in my house,or back deck,and deciding what would be best for me to shoot with all the ammo i have.

Grey,i really am leaning your way,as another gent,who really has sent me a lot of good advice also agreed.

I guess what i am doing is trying to live with what shook out after just about being killed or paralyzed.I was without any feeling below my shoulders for about a month.

Instead of being mad and bitter,i am going to live with what the good lord decided i should still have.i like your way of thinking grey,as i go back to n dakota a few times year.and in a year,i will be in arizona for a few months.

It sure would be simpler and hassle free to carry my rifles,or transport them worry free.

Legality(SBR) is determined by features and barrel length, specifically in the AR. If the gun has a stock, the barrel has to be 16" or longer, otherwise it is an SBR and needs to have a $200 stamp.

If it has no stock (as is the case with pistols) then the barrel can be shorter than 16". Some people use pistol buffer tubes, others use braces. One of the listed benefits, it is a pistol and in some states can be carried loaded in your vehicle, where as a rifle cannot. Don't have to notify the ATF if you are wanting to travel out of state with a pistol (you do with an SBR), you don't have the same possession laws and restricted access either.

I personally use the KAK Shockwave Blades, although there are a ton of different ones out there. I originally bought one of the first SIG braces, but sold it in favor of the KAK, which are easy to adjust length of pull on. I don't have much experience with shooting other brands. Shoot me an email if you would like to discuss braces.

I use the KAK flashcans as well. My pistols have 10.5" barrels. In the picture below, the Colt style dedicated 9mm is the 2nd from the left. I have built them all, calibers so far are 9mm, .223 WYLDE, 300 BLK and 7.62x39. Not sure what my next calibers are going to be just yet...

quote:

Originally posted by JoshNC:
This is a great thread to give you some ideas:

https://sigforum.com/eve/forums...935/m/4400051214/p/1

I am biased (affiliated with B&T USA), however I am only affiliated because I believe B&T makes top tier firearms and accessories. Now that this disclaimer is out of the way if I was in your shoes narrowing it down to two pistol caliber SBRs, I would choose either the mp5 or the B&T apc9.

The mp5 is iconic, soft shooting, easy to shoot. It suffers from its expense, the expense of accessories and spare parts, the need for the addition of an optic mount, inability to armor/gunsmith on your own, and lack of a bolt catch. Those are all shortcomings I can (and do) live with. I have a HK SP89 converted to MP5K-N, SP5K that will soon be converted to MP5K-N, and hk94 converted to MP5-N. I love them and from an iconic historical and pure sex appeal standpoint, I never plan to sell them.

The APC9 is every bit as smooth/soft shooting as the MP5 series on account of the very effective hydraulic buffer. What sets it apart from the MP5 is that it is far more ergonomic, has integral optic mounting has a bolt catch, and it is ambidextrous. Suppressor mounting is easy and there are myriad 3-lug suppressor options from which to choose. Stock options include folding with fixed LOP, folding with adjustable LOP, and telescoping. Did I say it is smooth? It is also a very simple, highly reliable design with a robust highly reliable extractor/spring. The same cannot be said for the mp5 extractor spring, which is the weak link in the HK roller delay series.

I strongly recommend that you try the various options before you buy. I can say without reservation that you will likely be very pleased with an MP5 and/or APC9.

I find AR/9 to have snappier recoil than the APC9 and MP5 due to the blowback action with lighter bolt. I have minimal experience with the MPX. It appears to be a good design in its theory, however I lack sufficient time shooting the MPX to formulate a personal opinion as to its merits and detractions. Same with the Evo, which is by far the most economical of the current options. It seems to be a good option, however I just lack suffice personal time with the Evo to weigh in on it. I really should buy one just to have for reference.

All this said, I am a big fan of factory SBRs. And the Colt 6991 is a very unique offering. If the recoil of the AR/9 is not bothersome to your neck and you like the 6991, I would go with that. Flexibility to the infinite order. You can swap various uppers to your hearts content.

I had to look for 5 pages to find that thread! I just posted there that Brownells has the KH9 on sale for $1799 ... regular price $2294

That being said, I've bought 2 of the Omega HK clones ... the MP5SD and MP5K and have been very impressed with their fit, finish and functionality ... both have ran perfectly with both my semi FCG and full auto with my registered sear.

If you are going to go with an SBR, you might as well get a suppressor! I have several but I built one on a Form 1 for my MP5SD ... the suppressor makes it even softer in terms of recoil.

The MP5SD requires regular full power 9mm ammo as it has bleed-off vents at the bottom of the barrel which are also covered by the suppressor and also lessen's the recoil. Subsonic ammo for suppressors (low power ammo) isn't needed ... and actually it doesn't function well if at all in the MP5SD because of its design.

BTW, I'm also 60 and have 2 compressed vertebra and Osteoporosis (bone density is -3.5) drugs help the pain but I still have to be careful of what I shoot too.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: kimberkid,

My SBR Scorpion is soft shooting as is Beretta’s Cx4 Storm. I’m sorry to hear about your medical problems.

I own a 3rd gen 556 platform (1 16”, 1 stamped 10.25”) that is very mild recoil, to me extremely mild, and milder than anything I’ve used. It’s an odd duck that I’m quite content with. But recently acquiring a CZ Scorpion with the SBT EVO brace, I can honestly tell you I’d have skipped the stamp. I pray to God I will never use a firearm to defend my life or property. But if someone did, it won’t be a long shot 99%. These subs, pistols with braces, whatever you want to call them, could replace my sbr in a nanosecond. The right 9mm load is gonna work just fine for actual defensive distances. Ammo is cheaper, you have the choice of stamping it, or using a brace, and in the case of the EVO, plenty of aftermarket options for most anything (replaced a lot of shit on mine like others), and the magazines are priced very fairly. My opinion only, get yourself an EVO, an MP5 variant, etc, I think you’ll be very pleased. Recoil is very light, and the package is small. Keeping it a pistol was discussed a few posts up and that fact can not be overstated. That EVO could easily replace my HD long gun, my main rifle and sbr, and even my pistols if need be. You can throw it in a small backpack, folded. Mine fits in my work laptop bag it’s so small when folded. One of my vehicles has racing seats, heavily bolstered, and when driving it I just take the EVO with me as my ccw pistol, with some spare loaded magazines.

Good luck to you sir. I am very saddened to read of your physical ailments. I wish you all the best.

Thanks pre,
Great advice as usual from all sig members.I hope these post's and advice also help other member's or newcomer's like me who are getting older,have the physical limitations,from arthritis on up.There are a lot of shooters,gun owners my age or generation,who still want to shoot some kind of gun to some degree.

We lose a lot of things we had when younger.sight,mobility,being able to handle recoil.

There are many more choices with these sbr,pistol,and short rifle options that we have.I even watched with great interest the re issue,of rugers 9mm carbine.