So I have just over a thousand rounds is all through my Spikes M4LE though now after the last 2 cleaning sessions the bolt carrier fails the stand up test and slides down. Not sure if it was because I now use Slip 2000 or if the rings are wearing out.

I thought gas rings were good for way over 1000 rounds, and my AR is still locking back on every mag, and throws brass around 3 o’clock to 3:30 position.

Is the bolt drop test 100% accurate? Or do people have gas rings that are good that won’t hold the bolt carrier up?

I would expect your gas rings to last longer than 1000 rounds. I have no experience your lube, though. Whether I replaced the rings would depend a bit on what I used the gun for. If it were for self-defense or competition, I would just replace the gas rings. (Replacing the gas rings is both easy and cheap.)

If the gun is only for fun, I don't see any reason you can't run the rings a little longer....if the gun starts to misbehave, then the gas rings would be the first on my "suspect" list. Besides, if it's just a fun gun, everyone can use a little practice fixing malfunctions as they occur.

If it were my gun though, I'm a bit OCD, so I would simply go ahead and replace the rings and then I don't have to worry about it. They're cheap and easy and then I wouldn't have to worry about it.

Best wishes, mike

According to a couple of armorers schools, gas rings should last around 7-8k rounds. That being said I’ve seen them go way longer, and I’ve seen them go out around 4K. I don’t think lube (quality lube) has much to do with it.

The answer could be as simple as they were made Friday afternoon at 4:00. Gas rings are super cheap, replace them and drive on. It is odd that they didn’t last very odd, but not something I’d dwell on.

You can look inside the bolt carrier to ensure nothing looks out of place to the eye.

So what I’m gathering is that the bolt carrier test is indeed a gold standard for ring integrity. This gun is primarily a range toy, but obviously I want it to work always so I guess I’ll just replace the rings.

Everything in the bolt and the rest of the gun seems perfectly fine I just noticed that the bolt is pretty easy to put in the carrier as of late. I didn’t really fret at it though because function has been 100% still.

Did the rings just slide up and over or is there a tool that helps? Like maybe a tiny screwdriver flat head of course?

I use a tiny screwdriver and very gently coax them forward from the tail end of the bolt. I have never bent or kinked one, but it seems like it could be done fairly easily (especially be me! ).

The rings are directional so be careful of that.
I use a dental pick to remove and replace.

Bruce

I have experienced 2 bad rings on my AR15s. Both instances occurred after high-volume courses, where the instructors induced a number of cycling stoppages. The rings became bent (loose ?) enough that I had to squeeze them to return the bolt into the BCG after cleaning. But the rifles ran fine once assembled.

In other courses with this instructor we dove into the components, life expectancies, and failure modes of ARs. Gas rings was one topic. A couple of students volunteered their rifles for testing. Both rifles cycled well with both 2 or 3 rings of the 3-ring system. One rifle cycled with only 1 of 3 rings on the bolt, the other didn't.

I switched to 1-piece gas rings after my second bent/loose ring. Haven't experienced any issues since then, including high-volume courses with instructor-induced stoppages. Most of my 1-piece rings pass the "stand up test" easily. One sorta does, kinda, ish. One completely fails. All my bolt/BCG setups cycle flawlessly, in AR15s with barrels from 11 to 24 inches in length, running suppressed.

I think the "stand up test" is over rated.

I replace my 1-piece rings in the 4k to 5k round ballpark.

Allright I’ll get a tiny screwdriver and or a dental pick and maybe just replace them next time I clean it. Nice to know the stand up test may not be 100% indicative of failure. I get why it’s pertinent, I’m just very surprised mine would be “bad” after only 1k rounds.

Part of me feels like I wanna see how long it will go until there’s a failure, but perhaps best to just replace and forget about it. Thanks all. Ordered an 3-pk. and the shipping was 3x the cost of the rings themselves :/

Replace them.

They are cheap.

And it could be like Jones said, made on Friday.

They should go for much much longer but it’s not worth worrying

when I was shooting a lot of Service Rifle\ High Power matches, I would replace yearly just cause,

forgot one year and the next I pulled them and they were literally slivers,

rifle(AR15 A2 ) functioned fine,


just bought a new upper with new bolt group a few months ago, will check them over the winter,


that was shooting warm 69 gr reloads too,


conversely, my M16 with as many rounds thru it in a year, did not need new rings,

using just basic M193 ball

Interesting seems like there is quite a span depending on a multitude of factors such as ring quality, ammo, lube, and bolt carrier integrity. On this particular AR it’s taken me about a decade to get to just over 1k rounds so even if the new rings last another 1k only that should do well for a while I suppose.

Gas rings, and gas systems, are all different. Over the years of maintaining ARs, M14s, P7s and more...

It depends on how much you shoot, and how fast, and it depends on how much you clean. You can clean too little, and you can actually clean enough that you are unintentionally polishing things.

This is the first I've ever heard about the "stand up test." I've never done it, and I won't bother starting. It will tell you precisely as much as the "tip test" of an M14.

The gas rings aren't meant to be a perfect seal, they can't be. It doesn't matter if they line up, and they just can't be overly worn. Just like your throat, hot and fast is what does them in, over any amount of slow fire.

1000 rounds? Unless your gas rings are made of tissue paper or peanut brittle, this is too soon, or something is out of spec or worn out itself.

Somewhere about 4-5k is about right, but if you're shooting a lot of full auto, the rifle will start telling you sooner... maybe.

With the coatings that you can get on the bolt and carrier parts, cleaning is easier, and that's great. If you notice sluggish unlock, or a lot of gas dumping, OK, but you probably won't.

After 5k, best be safe the things are cheap. I've never tried the one piece rings.

^^^^^ Good info thanks. Yeah my cadence of fire is on the slower side. Maybe a few mag dumps, but usually less than one round per second.

I clean my stuff very well though do not scrub until shiny, and I don’t use any scouring or abrasive mediums or chemicals. I oil after cleaning/handling, keeping things moderately well lubed and protected.

That’s why it was rather puzzling to me. I can see no defects to the naked eye in the bolt or carrier, and I don’t mishandle or excessively use my rifle in a hot rod type fashion to accelerate wear. The only conclusions I have are that A) the rings are not made as well as they should be, or B) mine are indeed fine as if not for the failed stand up test the functionality is perfect with no indication otherwise of near future issues.

pull one and see how thick it is compared to a new ring,

You “should” be able to go well over 1k with gas rings. However, many considerations go in to that thinking. Who made, quality of steel, manufactured to spec etc.

Stand BCG straight up with bolt pulled out. If it doesn’t hold, you should start by checking the BCG first with gauges and the gas rings.

Look up School of the American shooter on YouTube. Guy is a wealth of knowledge.

quote:

Originally posted by LincolnSixEcho:
So I have just over a thousand rounds is all through my Spikes M4LE though now after the last 2 cleaning sessions the bolt carrier fails the stand up test and slides down. Not sure if it was because I now use Slip 2000 or if the rings are wearing out.

I thought gas rings were good for way over 1000 rounds, and my AR is still locking back on every mag, and throws brass around 3 o’clock to 3:30 position.

Is the bolt drop test 100% accurate? Or do people have gas rings that are good that won’t hold the bolt carrier up?

SOTAR
School Of The American Rifle.
Lots of good info there.

This was a good one on a bad BCG.

^^^^^ All the years shooting AR’s and I’ve never seen that battery of testing. Never really thought about it all though it appears there is a tiny window of acceptable deviation for tolerances. Interestingly, even with all those improper tolerances between the bolt and the carrier, the rings still seemed unaffected, and it passed that test.

My BCG may or may not pass those tests, I have no idea because I don’t have all of those gauges. Part of the reason I bought a spikes back in the day was because it was touted to have a well designed and tested bolt and bolt carrier compared to some of the other higher end rifles.. I know it’s magnetic particle tested, and the carrier has good staking, but aside from that I don’t know the go or no go gauge dimensions.

I do know that it used to pass the stand up test and only the last couple times I’ve shot it after switching lubes it has failed that test. Not sure if one is related to the other but like I said previously functionality has been 100% and if not for that stand up test I would never know anything is wrong.

Prior when I said I didn’t use anything abrasive I assumed my bolt cleaning tool was not an issue, but after seeing the video I am wondering if it is. I use a CAT M4 multi bolt and carrier scraping and cleaning tool. I thought it was not only fine, but recommended to get the carbon scraped well which I have done though not to excess. Without the tool, I’m not really sure how I would get the carbon off where the boat tail widens towards the gas ring area.

The purpose of the gas rings is to create a seal with the inner wall of the bolt carrier, so when the hot gas comes back the pressure is contained enough to drive the system - this is where all of the energy to drive the bolt carrier to cycle the gun comes from.

The military is interested in keeping guns in the fight, and they've prescribed two levels of gas ring checks for field evaluation - the first is using the weight of the carrier with the BCG standing on the face of the extended bolt - the second is to use the weight of the bolt with the BCG sitting on its tail. The first test can fail, the second cannot and requires the gas rings be replaced immediately.

Many people give the advice that failing the former test would mean you should replace gas rings, in the context of a rifle you're betting your life on to function correctly. It's cheap insurance in a game of stacking the odds in your favor as much as possible. If your guns works, and you just want to shoot it at the range, then keep doing so - It may be easier to make it not work if you're bleeding off a little extra gas, and you might see extra fouling where gas blows by the rings, but for general use at the range there's not much worry even if/when you eventually start seeing stoppages from it.

You can look to see if there's a rough surface in the bolt carrier that might wear the rings, but I would probably chalk it up to a one time occurrence, replace the rings, and move on. And if you chew through the next set it's still cheaper to replace gas rings 10 times over the course of owning the gun than it is to buy a replacement bolt carrier or otherwise fix any problem. In fact, gas rings get pretty cheap if you buy in bulk

^^^^^^^ Good to know. I’m pretty certain it did not fail the second test as when I was holding it up with the carrier and bolt put back together the bolt did not creep down into the carrier.

Still, yes I’ll most likely just replace them next time I clean it.

Here's a short one on his take on BCG cleaning.


I have chrome and NP3 BCG's that just wipe off.
The phosphate one I just brush off the loose stuff then lube it back up.
I don't worry about carbon build up too much and don't generally tear them down to clean.
If the bolt starts acting goofy I have spare ones.

Keep in mind that that his gauges are arranged to see how efficient a particular area is.
BCG's can be way out of spec and still run.. With a big enough gas port.

I doubt there's anything out of whack with yours other than the rings lost some tension.