So I was at the range yesterday testing some loads for my Sig Cross in 6.5 Creedmooor. After shooting my rifle a group showed up and started to zero a AR15 with handloaded ammo. His rifle was short stroking, failing to extract, failing to feed and primers not igniting. At one point the gun locked up tight and they could not figure out how to get the stuck round out. I could not take it anymore so I said, “Sir, collapse the stock and hand me the rifle”. I mortared the LIVE round out and asked him about his loads. He was more than willing to talk about them and what he said made me cringe.

The gentleman was using Titegroup. He could not tell me how much or anything else about the load. I told him that is a pistol powder and he was playing with fire using that powder in a 223 load. He then proceeds to tell me that he blew up his new gun and one of his friends new guns using Titegroup. . I then asked about his reloading manuals and he stated he didn’t have one and used the data he saw on gun forums. I directed him to Hodgdon Reloading where the only load for 223 and Titegroup is for a subsonic load. Since he did not have a suppressor, I assume he was not using load data for shooting suppressed. I then proceeded to pack up my stuff and got the hell out of there before I received parts of his gun into parts of my body.


On a side note, my Sig loves the new load I was testing. 10 shots at 100yds on a 1” dot. The winds were about 15mph yesterday, so I’m sure I can tighten the groups up.

What’s a little 7075 AL shrapnel between range lanes?? I would’ve done the same thing. Packed up and left.

There is so much reloading data online from the powder manufacturers. My last place for data would be some forum.

How you like the Cross? Build quality?

Never say never, but in my 40+ years of reloading have never damaged let alone blew up a gun with reloads. I have heard and seen a number of incidents where it did happen however.

I used to shoot at a public range at a the state wildlife management area. One time a group of three yahoos with their girlfriends showed up. They had a cheap AR and a cheap AK. As they were shooting, the AK started doubling, but they thought this was great, not dangerous. The two other shooters and I started exchanging glances.

Then, one of the punks decided to dual-wield the two rifles, with the AK in his left. (We were to his left on the shooting line). As he was mag-dumping, the AK’s muzzle started wandering first high and over the berm, and then arcing left. The two other guys and I had our stuff in our cars before he finished the mag. I just unloaded, threw my stuff in the trunk and more or less ran outta there.

Besides being stupid, he's doing it backwards.

Titegroup in a 223 load??

I only use that for subsonic 9mm.

Watched a person who was clearly new to guns get some instruction on a Beretta 92, took 1 shot, grinned real big looking down at it and proceeds to spin a full circle. 360 degrees with muzzle pointing straight out, still grinning. "Friend" didn't correct it which told me he was a dumbass. I was mad and left. Didn't want to be anywhere near em.

I have a hard time going to ranges because of stuff like that.

I was practicing 22 benchrest shooting at a gun club and had my target at 50 yards and my wind flags out.

Some one showed up with a pistol and picked the bench right beside me even though there were multiple empty benches further away. He asked me to hold my fire while he he put a target up which I did.

After he put his target up we proceeded with the shooting and he was magazine dumping rapid fire every time he shot. He eventually left and I finished my target with 25 bulls.

I went to retrieve my target and noticed he had shot two of my wind flags.

I got a membership at another club that had a dedicated rimfire rile range along with dedicated pistol ranges, and dedicated centerfire rifle ranges.

So far no problem at the new club.

Last spring I was in a bay alone and working a lot of shooting and moving. At one point, I looked up and saw two small children down range on the berm. The next bay over a dude was shooting a bench rest gun. I called cease fire because there were kids down range. He told me it was ok because they weren’t on the back berm only on the side berm. The kids were 5-6 years old.

I came completely unglued when I found they were his kids and he let them run unsupervised. As he was standing there being defensive, one of the kids grabbed his rifle muzzle and put it up to his eye. When I said something about that, he blamed me for “distracting him”

quote:

Originally posted by captain127:
Never say never, but in my 40+ years of reloading have never damaged let alone blew up a gun with reloads. I have heard and seen a number of incidents where it did happen however.

Pistol powder in a rifle round is the very first step towards a catastrophic kaboom.

quote:

Originally posted by Blackwater:
What’s a little 7075 AL shrapnel between range lanes?? I would’ve done the same thing. Packed up and left.

There is so much reloading data online from the powder manufacturers. My last place for data would be some forum.

How you like the Cross? Build quality?

I absolutely love the Sig Cross. It is lightweight, shoots well and is well built. I got mine for $800, so I love it even better at that price .

I have shot a .79” out of it with 120gr ELD Match bullets and Varget powder.

Hodgdon has reload data for 223 using Titgroup.

I assume that is where they got their data from. So I guess I can't really say they were wrong if they followed the data.

quote:

Originally posted by gjgalligan:
Hodgdon has reload data for 223 using Titgroup.

I assume that is where they got their data from. So I guess I can't really say they were wrong if they followed the data.

I had that in my OP. It is for a subsonic load.

Please enlighten me why it was wrong to shoot it at the range.

Just so you are aware: I think subsonic are intended for a fire arm with a silencer but don't know the ins & outs of using a silencer.
Is it wrong to fire them without a silencer?

quote:

Originally posted by gjgalligan:
Please enlighten me why it was wrong to shoot it at the range.

Just so you are aware: I think subsonic are intended for a fire arm with a silencer but don't know the ins & outs of using a silencer.
Is it wrong to fire them without a silencer?

He did not get the data from Hodgdon. I directed him to the website in order to get good load data. He stated to me that he had found his load data on gun forums. He also stated he had blown up two gun using Titegroup.

If he had used the data from Hodgdon it would have been perfectly fine to use in his gun provided he followed the load data correctly. The gun would probably not cycle due to it being a reduced load. You may as well just shoot a suppressed .22 as that is essentially what subsonic .223 amounts to.

Basically what it boils down to, is this guy does not need to be loading anything till he gets a reloading manual and follows it.

quote:

Originally posted by gjgalligan:
Is it wrong to fire them without a silencer?

To amplify the comments by usncorpsman, there is nothing wrong with shooting subsonic loads without a suppressor, except for the fact that there is no special advantage to doing so. Without a can the discharge will still require hearing protection to be safe and the ballistic advantages of the normal velocities will be lost.

But that wasn’t the point. The man was evidently using improper loads that caused excessive pressures. “Improper” can mean using too much of a proper powder for the cartridge and firearm, but also using too much of the wrong type of powder. Different types of gunpowder have different burning characteristics, and a type that’s suitable when used in small, proper quantities for a subsonic load can be very dangerous if the safe quantity is exceeded in an attempt to get normal supersonic velocities. With some powders it’s possible to fill a case to overflowing and the pressure won’t be excessive. With others, though, a safe load will be so small that if it’s doubled due to a handloader’s error it can blow up a gun.

And if someone blows up a gun due to using an improper handload, he endangers not only himself but also anyone nearby. As stated, the proper method of selecting loads is to get them from reliable sources, not something found on the ’net. A forum I was a member of long ago went so far as to prohibit posting load data.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by gjgalligan:
Is it wrong to fire them without a silencer?

To amplify the comments by usncorpsman, there is nothing wrong with shooting subsonic loads without a suppressor, except for the fact that there is no special advantage to doing so. Without a can the discharge will still require hearing protection to be safe and the ballistic advantages of the normal velocities will be lost.

But that wasn’t the point. The man was evidently using improper loads that caused excessive pressures. “Improper” can mean using too much of a proper powder for the cartridge and firearm, but also using too much of the wrong type of powder. Different types of gunpowder have different burning characteristics, and a type that’s suitable when used in small, proper quantities for a subsonic load can be very dangerous if the safe quantity is exceeded in an attempt to get normal supersonic velocities. With some powders it’s possible to fill a case to overflowing and the pressure won’t be excessive. With others, though, a safe load will be so small that if it’s doubled due to a handloader’s error it can blow up a gun.

And if someone blows up a gun due to using an improper handload, he endangers not only himself but also anyone nearby. As stated, the proper method of selecting loads is to get them from reliable sources, not something found on the ’net. A forum I was a member of long ago went so far as to prohibit posting load data.

Yep, you can fill a 223 case to the brim with Varget and with a 50gr VMAX it will be near max or slightly over. Nowhere near a proof load and you would probably never have a problem.

Full that same case with Bullseye pistol powder and your rifle will catastrophically disassemble itself in spectacular fashion.


I always get my load data from either published reloading manuals, or online resources such as hodgdon's reloading data center. I also have Hornady's app on my phone for specific loads like the 6mm ARC that are not widely published yet because it is relatively new.

IF you are doing something like looking for an accuracy load, and go to online forums and find a recommendation. Always cross reference that data with a published manual to make sure it is within the safe range.