KSGM....I can speak highly of White Oak's 18" SPR barrel; would recommend. Seems to prefer to Black Hills 77 OTM and is decently accurate even with 69 grain.

Not sure if you are firmly sold on 16" barrel but with 1:7 twist you are getting 2.5 revolutions with the 18" prior to exiting the muzzle.

Just my $0.02.

I am wanting to go even shorter, which is where the problem may lie, when it comes to the revolutions; I'd be getting just a bit more than 1.5 revolutions, and that may not be enough to achieve the accuracy I was hoping for. This is all pretty new to me; I haven't delved into the more precision side of things much at all.

It’s not exactly what you’re looking for, but a PRI 16” SPR Mod-H is fantastic and not at all a fool’s errand.

There is an entire ARFCOM multiple page thread discussing mini SPR and RECCE rifles. It’s a good source of ideas and information.

I can’t speak to such a short barrel’s effect on accuracy, but in my limited testing with two loads (M193 and Speer 64 grain GDSP), reducing the length from 16 to 11.5 inches lost about 250 to nearly 300 feet per second, and of course muzzle energy. For range use the loss of energy doesn’t matter, but lower velocities obviously affect trajectory and wind drift which can be more important at longer ranges.

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ARFCOM multiple page thread discussing mini SPR and RECCE rifles.

There is a lot of chaff to sift through, in that thread; I may not have the patience to look through almost 200 pages, to find the few pages worth of good info. Of the one accuracy report I came across so far (I forget the barrel type and length), he was sub-MOA at 100Y, but his 200Y group opened up to three inches. I am sure more testing with different bullets would yield different/better results, but I still found that interesting.

I've shot with a couple of buddies who use 11-12 inch barrels on special purpose AR15s -- primarily for 2-rifle competitions. The idea is a weight reduction -- we're carrying a heavy bolt action, a carbine, a pack that tends to be heavy, and usual support gear of binos/LRF/tripod.

The carbines have high quality barrels -- Krieger, Bartlein, or similar -- cut with tight, precise chambers. They are experienced handloaders and use quality match bullets. Accuracy is around 3/4 MOA out to hundreds of yards. They push their loads hard, attaining MVs along the lines of 14" barrels with factory match loads. They understand this is tough on brass, and thus the match loads are made with older brass, which they abandon at matches. Their carbines kick ass out to around 250 yards in matches. They are great shooters, too -- capable of stacking rounds on top of each other at 100 yards.

I do believe that pushing the loads on the shorter barrels will decrease barrel life, if one is concerned about that. A hot load with a short barrel will likely shorten suppressor life, if one is concerned about that.

Their challenge is with targets of 250-450 yards, where the carbine's lower MV comes into play. By comparison those of us with 16-18 inch barrels see noticeably reduced wind drift, flatter flight for when target distances aren't what we expected, noticeably more energy on target to spot impacts, and more pronounced splash on misses to spot impacts. There are trade offs.

I can't speak for barrels shorter than 11-12 inches, as none of the precision shooters I know go that short. From what I see, there are no physics that state these 11-12 inch barrels can't be as inherently accurate as those that are a little longer. There doesn't appear to be any requirement that the bullet must spin X number of times in the barrel to fly well. What does matter is having adequate spin RPMs to stabilize a given bullet. Reduce the MV (aka shorter barrel) and the twist rate likely must be faster to obtain optimal stability. IIRC, my buddies have twist rates of 1:7.5 or 1:7.7 in their shorter barrels.

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Originally posted by KSGM:
And now my benchrest shooter friend has me concerned that this could all be a fools errand. As previously stated, I am considering a 12" heavy profile barrel. This is more than likely going to require cutting a barrel. He seems to think the cutting, regardless of who performs it, could degrade the accuracy potential of the barrel. He also thinks that 12" may just be too short, even with a 1:7. The idea is a sacrifice in velocity and longer range ability, for the sake of a handier gun, while still having precision ability inside 400m, and retaining that ability even after a bout of high-volume rapid fire, with the help of a heavy profile. What are the SF thoughts on this? He also seems to think I should stick with 1:7, if I want to see consistent accuracy out of 70gr or heavier bullets, which I do. I trust the guy, but he's going counter to some stuff y'all have said; his experience with precision semi-autos is limited though (he has yet to shoot his MK18 without a "bobsled"), so I may do well to take his suggestions on the matter with a grain of salt.

https://www.larue.com/products/5-56-stealth-barrel-k/


Larue has 12" stealth barrels. They shoot well. 1:8 is fine for everything that will fit in a magazine. Anything that will need a faster twist would have to be single loaded.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:

The carbines have high quality barrels -- Krieger, Bartlein, or similar -- cut with tight, precise chambers. They are experienced handloaders and use quality match bullets. Accuracy is around 3/4 MOA out to hundreds of yards. They push their loads hard, attaining MVs along the lines of 14" barrels with factory match loads. They understand this is tough on brass, and thus the match loads are made with older brass, which they abandon at matches. Their carbines kick ass out to around 250 yards in matches. They are great shooters, too -- capable of stacking rounds on top of each other at 100 yards.

My PRS load is pretty hot. It was fine in Lake City brass but I bought some Nosler Premium brass seeking more consistency in the brass.

It was a terrible disappointment as I had ejector hole extrusion and loosened primer pockets on one firing with loads that showed no pressure signs in Lake City.

So I scrapped that brass and just sorted all my brass to get enough Lake City 08 brass to shoot for the life of the barrel. Multiple firings with Lake City and no pressure signs.

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
The idea is a sacrifice in velocity and longer range ability, for the sake of a handier gun, while still having precision ability inside 400m, and retaining that ability even after a bout of high-volume rapid fire, with the help of a heavy profile. What are the SF thoughts on this?

KSGM

Check out this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsYD6JKm840


Not to disparage your benchrest shooting buddy. I'm sure he knows his game. But people from a certain discipline often tend to think in terms of that discipline.

What you are seeking is pretty far outside of the bounds of benchrest. But I think it is perfectly attainable. 400 yards from an 12" barrel is perfectly doable. Having stretched a 20" 223 out to 1000 yards, 400 yards frankly, is a chip shot.

You will need to work on your wind reading skills. If you are open to a different caliber, you could consider 6 ARC. It's on my radar when I shoot out my current PRS barrel. I know how much I am hamstringing myself shooting a 223 vs. 6.5 Creedmoor gas guns.

I have a kind of bad taste in my mouth, where Larue is concerned. Coincidentally, because I had that exact rifle (the SUURG) on order for over a year, only to find out they never really intended to make more, and were just kind of waiting for everyone to cancel their orders, as opposed to manning up and telling folks they weren't gonna make them. I had that money set aside for a year, for something I was gonna have to wait another year on a form4 for; I was committed, and they ended up kinda boning me.
I have looked at the Stealth barrels on your recommendation; they don't have the 12" with a mid gas, which I think would be good, considering my full-time suppressed intent.
I skipped around that video a bit, and then skipped to the final accuracy test. It seems the gun was allowed to return to ambient temperature. During this discussion, I have been referring to heat in the present moment; If he shot a group, dumped four or five of those 20rd mags, and then immediately shot another group, would the result be the same, or would the heat-soaked barrel have an adverse effect?
I read you loud and clear, on the input from bench rest buddy.

Yeah I can understand being soured after that experience. I think what happened was the .gov contract that they were seeking with that gun never came to fruition, but they should have informed people who had preordered.

Carbine length with a 12" would probably be ok, but I use adjustable gas blocks on almost everything so that I can tune the gun to my liking. Mid-length would be preferable for full time suppressed use.


Speaking from a standpoint of maintaining accuracy while hot, mine stays consistent on 3 gun stages with round counts up to around 60 round, usually in around 30-40 seconds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP8m0h7R2jA

I have looked around at various other high end barrel makers like Criterion, Compass Lake, and JP. None of them offer a 12" barrel.

https://www.x-caliber.net/

They have a custom barrel configurator, and I’m sure could make exactly what you want. I don’t think they chrome line.

quote:

Originally posted by IndianaBoy:
I have looked around at various other high end barrel makers like Criterion, Compass Lake, and JP. None of them offer a 12" barrel.

Compass Lake, White Oak, Craddock Precision -- all can provide just about whatever the shooter wants. One just has to pick up the phone, open the checkbook, and be patient. I know buddies who have ordered very special barrels from Compass Lake -- requiring that CLE start with a barrel blank, turned its profile and cut it to length.

Craddock started at either CLE or White Oak before splitting off on his own. His site offers a lot of options on barrels. Or as I have done, just pick up the phone and talk to Craddock directly. His barrels are great.

These custom shops can provide just about whatever the customer wants. But get one of these folks on the side and in private -- they just might state that the customer often doesn't understand the difference between wants & needs, and often doesn't have the shooting capabilities to exploit any differences.

Unfortunately I have not heard back from the somewhat local precision rifle gunsmith. I am thinking of going with the White Oak (5SPR16), and then having it cut/threaded by Adco. I would have liked the work to have been done by someone who specializes in precision stuff, but beggars can't be choosers, and I am not going to invest heavier than that (time or money) in an experiment. I could get into what I'm after for probably just shy of $400, with only a few weeks wrapped up in it, going the WOA/Adco route. If the gun/concept proves to be what I hope it may, I'll likely consider investing in a one-off barrel from any of the outfits mentioned.

Another question: Six grooves or five?

I don't know why you would buy a barrel from White Oak, then send it elsewhere for a cut & thread. White Oak can do it all, and likely better.

Cases can be made for the relative advantages for each of 4, 5, or 6 groove barrels. I have owned and shot barrels with 4, 5, and 6 grooves. In my experience the quality of the barrel blank and the precision with how the lands & grooves are made is more important than their number.

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White Oak can do it all, and likely better.

Dur. I come here for more than the knowledge; I also come because I need all the help I can get across the board. I'll email them about a secondary service/fee before shipping. Thanks!

*Update* They can't accomodate any special requests at the moment.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: KSGM,

I configured a 14” at X-Caliber and it was $375. Don’t know how long it will take to ship.

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Don’t know how long it will take to ship.

I configured one too. Lead times are 11-12 weeks, for their AR barrels.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:

quote:

Originally posted by IndianaBoy:
I have looked around at various other high end barrel makers like Criterion, Compass Lake, and JP. None of them offer a 12" barrel.

Compass Lake, White Oak, Craddock Precision -- all can provide just about whatever the shooter wants. One just has to pick up the phone, open the checkbook, and be patient. I know buddies who have ordered very special barrels from Compass Lake -- requiring that CLE start with a barrel blank, turned its profile and cut it to length.

Craddock started at either CLE or White Oak before splitting off on his own. His site offers a lot of options on barrels. Or as I have done, just pick up the phone and talk to Craddock directly. His barrels are great.

These custom shops can provide just about whatever the customer wants. But get one of these folks on the side and in private -- they just might state that the customer often doesn't understand the difference between wants & needs, and often doesn't have the shooting capabilities to exploit any differences.

I'm glad you mentioned Craddock.

KSGM,

https://craddockprecision.com/...lde-bartlein-barrel/

They offer a 12.5 . Midlength too.

They are a little spendy but Bartlein is as good as it gets.