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A quick demonstration of the value of the number of shots in a test group. Login/Join 
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
posted
The two pictures were from a BROTUNED YouTube channel video that showed a test of SK Standard Plus 22 Long Rifle ammunition fired at a distance of 100 yards.

This three-shot group was the first of a test string. The narrator estimated it was about a quarter inch. A 0.25 inch center to center group at 100 yards would be remarkable for almost any rifle, even the highest quality centerfires, and even more so for mid quality 22LR ammo. If the shooter had been ignorant (or dishonest) and was trying to convince us to purchase a particular product or even that he was an exceptionally skilled shooter, he could have stopped there and posted the group.





But then what? He is a very careful and conscientious experimenter and he continued to fire seven more shots to get a 10-shot group of the sort that are common in his videos:





The resulting larger group is what can commonly be expected from the ammunition and rifle he was shooting: not bad, but not the spectacular results of the first three shots.

This point of shooting groups consisting of a meaningful number of shots has been discussed here and elsewhere many times before, but this was a good demonstration. A random three-shot group that measures 6 inches at 100 yards is pretty good evidence that the load/rifle/shooter or some combination is simply not very good. A cherry-picked three-shot 0.25 inch group, however, tells us nothing other than that chance (luck) has decided to favor us for once, and it’s good to keep that in mind when we see something like that (or when we get it ourselves).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpwsGKpEylM




6.4/93.6
 
Posts: 47949 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of sourdough44
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A 3 shot group is a little more meaningful than 2 shots. Seems hard to imagine anyone even above average getting a .25” group at 100 yards with a 22.

There is always the possibility of chance, though he sounds a little repeatable.

Most of us have had two holes touching, could be after 2 shots, or 10. If one were to quit at 2, that’s cheating.
 
Posts: 6538 | Location: WI | Registered: February 29, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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It's also the origin of one of my most detested phrases in all of the shooting world: "The rifle will shoot XX" groups all day long, if I do my part". It's usually someone that got one or two lucky three shot groups at some point and now "knows for a fact" that the rifle is capable of that. Heck, it did it once "when I did my part"
 
Posts: 9095 | Location: The Red part of Minnesota | Registered: October 06, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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A saying from older friend who shot a lot of benchrest shooting. A rifle and a load can throw a shot into a group just as well throwing 1 out. The more shots fired the more representative of the accuracy.
 
Posts: 563 | Location: Dothan, Alabama | Registered: August 27, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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quote:
Originally posted by elmer:
A rifle and a load can throw a shot into a group just as well throwing 1 out.

Indeed.
I first heard that some years ago and have remembered it ever since. Smile




6.4/93.6
 
Posts: 47949 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by MNSIG:
It's also the origin of one of my most detested phrases in all of the shooting world: "The rifle will shoot XX" groups all day long, if I do my part". It's usually someone that got one or two lucky three shot groups at some point and now "knows for a fact" that the rifle is capable of that. Heck, it did it once "when I did my part"

"All Day Long..." Some of the steel/precision/PRS match shooters I know just shorten it to "ADL". Shoot a good stage and the response is "ADL baby" -- in jest, with a grin.

"All Day Long" statements occur on pretty much any website that has discussions related to rifles. When I see or hear this statement (and not in jest), I know that the shooter has developed just enough marksmanship fundamentals to put together a tight group here and there. But the shooter hasn't developed the fundamentals to be consistently repeatable. Shooters with good fundamentals can produce accurate results every time they shoot -- every group, every shooting session, from one day to the next, from one month to the next. But good shooters know that they are human and that they make mistakes. That they have bad days. That they can lose concentration or get distracted.

Unless one is shooting a bench-rest rail gun, the shooter is an integral part of the aiming, consistency, and accuracy equation. There is virtually no "All Day Long" if humans are part of the system.

****
Of course, the variability of the rifle & ammo can be a factor, too -- as Sigfreund points out in the linked video.

I recall awhile ago that a shooter on Sigforum stated his AR15 produced world-class results, both in accuracy and long-distance capabilities.

He stated that his AR's close-up accuracy was 1/4 MOA, or maybe better. This was proven by a one-time severing of a small twig at an 80-ish yard distance with FMJ 55 ammo. Not multiple times -- just a one-time event.

He stated that his AR had 1,000 yard accuracy capabilities. This was the result of a buddy on a spotting scope, helping him to walk impacts onto a relatively large steel plate. IIRC correctly, it took 10-15 shots to get one target hit, after correcting for the splash of misses in dirt.

Repeatability is the hallmark of a good rifle-ammo-sights-shooter system.
 
Posts: 8088 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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