Just got home from 2 day shooting course. 98 degrees today. I’m pretty bushed. It was awesome and I learned a lot. VERY GLAD I decided to rent a proper LR setup. I took the SCAR along also and was able to hit steel to 600 easily even with PPU ball. I primarily shot a RH Ruger PR in 6mm Creedmoor with a Vortex Viper PST 5-25x50 in MOA.

Prior to this class I’d considered calculating ballistics and drop to be voodoo black magic but using a ballistic app and inputting proper G7 bullet data and local weather station conditions resulted in a dope chart that enabled me to go one for one first shot hits at 3/4/5/6/7/8/900 yards and second shot hits at 1000 after correcting for crosswind. I was simply astounded.

I was more astounded when I hit the LRSU “milk jug challenge” jug with my second shot at 1000 yards. Held dead on for elevation based on my dope chart, and 4 minutes of windage. Got it!

My brother shot a Remington 700 police tactical something or other in a Manners stock and he shot tiny groups during the zero confirmation at 100 and he hit the jug at 1000 also but he had to hold 12 minutes of wind. And as I spotted for him throughout the day I was amazed how much more the .308 gets blown around past 600 yards than my 6 creed did. The recoil beat him up as well, especially since the instructor had us set up directly behind the rifle with the buttstock high on our collarbones and as close to our centerline as possible.

My shoulder and cheek are sore from ergonomic weirdness (I had the comb as far back as possible to get a good eye box but was still basically resting my cheekbone on the rear edge of the comb) but was able to see my hits and call my shots at 1000 yards but with the SCAR I couldn’t at any distance due to the recoil. And that was a big part of success in the class so if I’d have tried to struggle through with my SCAR setup it would have been frustrating instead of enlightening and very enjoyable.

I’m still proud of hitting 3 for 3 at 600 with PPU ball and a 1-8 AccuPower. I just asked the spotter if he knew about what .308 ball required at 600 and he said he thought about 14 minutes so I held 14 minutes up and BOOM CLANG! Super cool.

I may write a longer summary/review of the class when I get some time. Well worth it IMO. LRSU intro to long range shooting course. Tons of fun.

It was so easy to hit out to 600 with the RPR that I stopped burning the ammo because it got a little boring. I did shoot a 10 shot group at 100 with it that was less than an inch. For someone who has literally never shot from prone/bags or bench before I found that very impressive.

LRSU?

Google....

Long Range Shooters of Utah.

Nine seconds for 27 keystrokes: Wasn’t that hard, was it, even with the suggestion that the readers could research something themselves that the author could have included with practically no effort?

If someone is going to the trouble of posting a report like this, the location and context of where it occurs is often useful information.

But thank you.

Wow.... Sorry to have offered the information.

Next time I shall refrain from contributing information. I was truly mislead by the interrogative at the termination of your typing.

You're welcome.

quote:

Originally posted by 1KPerDay:
Just got home from 2 day shooting course. 98 degrees today. I’m pretty bushed. It was awesome and I learned a lot. VERY GLAD I decided to rent a proper LR setup. I took the SCAR along also and was able to hit steel to 600 easily even with PPU ball. I primarily shot a RH Ruger PR in 6mm Creedmoor with a Vortex Viper PST 5-25x50 in MOA.

Prior to this class I’d considered calculating ballistics and drop to be voodoo black magic but using a ballistic app and inputting proper G7 bullet data and local weather station conditions resulted in a dope chart that enabled me to go one for one first shot hits at 3/4/5/6/7/8/900 yards and second shot hits at 1000 after correcting for crosswind. I was simply astounded.

I was more astounded when I hit the LRSU “milk jug challenge” jug with my second shot at 1000 yards. Held dead on for elevation based on my dope chart, and 4 minutes of windage. Got it!

My brother shot a Remington 700 police tactical something or other in a Manners stock and he shot tiny groups during the zero confirmation at 100 and he hit the jug at 1000 also but he had to hold 12 minutes of wind. And as I spotted for him throughout the day I was amazed how much more the .308 gets blown around past 600 yards than my 6 creed did. The recoil beat him up as well, especially since the instructor had us set up directly behind the rifle with the buttstock high on our collarbones and as close to our centerline as possible.

My shoulder and cheek are sore from ergonomic weirdness (I had the comb as far back as possible to get a good eye box but was still basically resting my cheekbone on the rear edge of the comb) but was able to see my hits and call my shots at 1000 yards but with the SCAR I couldn’t at any distance due to the recoil. And that was a big part of success in the class so if I’d have tried to struggle through with my SCAR setup it would have been frustrating instead of enlightening and very enjoyable.

I’m still proud of hitting 3 for 3 at 600 with PPU ball and a 1-8 AccuPower. I just asked the spotter if he knew about what .308 ball required at 600 and he said he thought about 14 minutes so I held 14 minutes up and BOOM CLANG! Super cool.

I may write a longer summary/review of the class when I get some time. Well worth it IMO. LRSU intro to long range shooting course. Tons of fun.

It was so easy to hit out to 600 with the RPR that I stopped burning the ammo because it got a little boring. I did shoot a 10 shot group at 100 with it that was less than an inch. For someone who has literally never shot from prone/bags or bench before I found that very impressive.

Good synopsis, and enjoyable read.

Let me just address the bolded part in your post.
Since I switched a heavier bullet in F-class, the 230gr A-tip, I have noticed that on Monday morning after the Sunday match, I have a little blue spot smaller than a dime, on my shoulder, at the top of my collarbone. This is where my rifle will recoil about 70 times during the Sunday match. It lasts about a week. At the Nationals last year, I shot the same quantity of ammo for 4 days. My little blue spot was almost black at the end of the week, and that lasted about a month. I am hesitant to use anything to reduce or eliminate that as it could introduce some unwanted changes.

Sounds like fun. First time to stretch your legs on a range with 50 yard all the way to 1000 yard targets is so eye opening and fun.

And gotta hand it to the SCAR. The thing is dam accurate. Makes no sense. The first 5 rounds I ever shot out of one with a 4x ACOG were under an inch. I thought I was missing some off the paper. Love the SCAR, but it heats up and then spreads out. No big deal.

My real limitation with the SCAR is my optic... the AccuPower is great for DMR type stuff and run and gun but the crosshairs are roughly 1MOA thick at 100 yds on 8X so the when I was trying to shoot some groups with different match ammo to see what it liked it was an exercise in frustration. That’ll have to wait until I have some dough for a good LR scope.

quote:

Originally posted by El Cid 92:
Next time I shall refrain from contributing information.

I appreciated the information. Thanks again.

For the many who can't go to classes, training go over some of the fundementals the instructors taught.

that's really cool

don't think I've ever even shot at anything farther than 300-ish yds

i feel like i would mentally just over-simplify everything and go 'shit -- just aim a little more to the left...'



----------------------------------------

quote:

Originally posted by offgrid:
For the many who can't go to classes, training go over some of the fundementals the instructors taught.

An accurate setup and good glass is essential, as is a bubble level. Several times the instructor said he'd rather have a $1K rifle and a $4K scope than a $4K rifle and a $1K scope.

For me, when I buy a good LR optic I'm going to look for very positive zero stops. The one I rented tracked accurately but didn't stop at zero/bottom. It went a bit past. Perhaps that was just that it was a rental and hadn't been re-zeroed or whatever. It was also a full revolution high on elevation but the instructor helped me get it sorted. I know almost nothing about optics but it was cool to be able to see a milk jug at 1000 yards at 25X well enough to hit it. I definitely want MORE magnification rather than less for this type of shooting.

For this class they taught mostly shooting from prone with a good bipod on a mat with straps you could push into to load the bipod.

Rear bag setup needs to be stable and allow for you to squeeze a bag to adjust elevation.

Good ballistic data and a ballistic app: some bullet makers just provide G1 BC data but ideally you want to input multiple G7 BC data points at multiple velocities. It was available for my Hornady Match 108 grain 6mm Creedmoor and when I input that data and the weather data including density altitude (we were at 6000ish feet but density altitude was around 9800 feet because it was so hot) it lined up perfectly and I simply dialed the prescribed dope for elevation and then it was just a question of wind calls.

As far as actually shooting, they came up with an acronym: don't forget your PANTS!

P=Position: get yourself directly behind the rifle with the bore inline with your spine, insides of feet flat on the ground, buttstock high as possible on collarbone and stock as close to medial (center of your body) as possible. It feels weird at first and you might have to move your scope back to get proper eye box. You want pressure on the stock and into the bipod so you sort of make a bridge and settle down into position with enough pressure that you can hold the buttstock on your shoulder and the crosshairs on your target without touching the rifle with your hands (or even a rear bag).

This is an excellent demonstration and the instructors used a similar video from Phillip Velayo during the class to discuss cheek weld and position.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5hvm1tbDyg

A=Acquire natural respiratory pause. (I would have used "Air" but it's not my class ). They discussed multiple breathing methods and demonstrated that you get the most stable and repeatable and accurate results when shooting during the natural respiratory pause at the bottom of your breathing cycle, after you let a full breath out.

N=Natural point of aim. You want to move your whole body so that the crosshairs settle on the target (or very close to it) with your eyes closed as you naturally breathe out. You practice getting your crosshairs on target, closing your eyes, breathing in and out, and reopening your eyes and checking your crosshairs. If they rest on the target, that's your natural point of aim. We even did a drill at 100 yards shooting with eyes closed, after acquiring the target, closing your eyes, breathing in and out, and shooting during the respiratory pause. Many people's groups eyes closed were better than eyes open. Mine was about half the size of my eyes open groups, but the POI was high and right of the bullseye. So I was obviously muscling the reticle into position more than I should.

T=Trigger control (the most important thing). Aim for a 90-degree bend in the trigger finger, and place the finger so the center of the first pad is on the trigger, and try to press straight to the rear. Don't try to ambush the target or snap the trigger when the crosshairs are where you want them. Press slowly and smoothly to the rear as you maintain the crosshairs on the target.

S=Stay on the rifle and spot your shot. Follow-through after the shot is important. Hold the trigger to the rear until you see your impact at least.

In addition to your PANTS, you also need to check your bubble level and your parallax. For every distance, you adjust your parallax first, then you always check your bubble level before each shot. I was very surprised how much difference having a bubble level made. You'd feel like you were repeating your position and scope alignment perfectly but you check your level and you're canted to the right or to the left. And if the bubble isn't centered, you won't be able to hit the target and/or call your wind holds correctly because if you're off center for level, you're pushing shots slightly left or right just by canting the rifle.

Before every session and pretty much before every shot, we repeated "bubble level, parallax, PANTS."

They went over some basics of ammo/reloading (match quality ammo is vital), equipment, optics, some stuff about wind calls (but I could have used more on that, since that's really the hardest thing to learn), and how wind at the shooter is more influential than wind midway to the target or at the target. They went over MOA and mils and what they mean, and how to make the proper adjustments. The spotters/instructors shot both, were very familiar with both, and had no issues calling correct wind holds in either language.

The ballistic app (we used "Shooter" which costs $10) took all the guesswork out of creating a dope chart, so they didn't get into any of the external ballistics or math as far as that goes. I also would have appreciated some instruction on ranging using the reticle but that's another kettle of fish.


That's pretty much the guts as far as I can recall.

Thanks for the additional information.

The PANTS acronym seems like a good way to remember each of its elements. I sometimes get careless and don’t run through the mental checklist of everything to focus on.

Something I’m finding interesting these days is the emphasis on levels to ensure the gun isn’t canted one way or the other. I’ve been using them so long that now when I don’t have one on a gun I feel a little angst even if I realize that it’s not necessary for the type of shooting I’m doing. And what is interesting is that when I first learned about levels, they were dismissed by some long range shooters as being unnecessary. Bryan Litz strongly recommends them, but I wonder how commonly they’re used.

Range estimation by using a calibrated reticle is simple in theory and I know there are various videos and other instructions on the Internet that explain it. I have experimented a fair amount with the technique, and mostly what I can say is that the theory works much better than the doing. Part of the problem, of course, is practicing and confirming one’s estimates. I have a spotting scope with milling reticle and a laser rangefinder, but using a scopesight in a public place might result in unwanted attention even if it’s not mounted on a rifle.

Info on class schedule and pricing for those interested: https://www.longrangeshootersofutah.com/classes/

Sound like LRSU was a good course for you. Well done.

The concepts behind the "PANTS" acronym seem to be pretty universal in precision rifle schools now. At one time they were considered voodoo, as they didn't mesh with what the military used for so long. The concepts can be referred to as the "fundamentals of marksmanship" in some other schools. Practice these regularly, so they become second nature. Practice should be with both live ammo and dry firing.

Should you decide to take your skills into formal rifle competition, understand that targets and conditions will be such that fundamentals will be compromised. If steel-target matches become your game, challenges will include time constraints, movement between shooting positions, acquiring & shooting at multiple targets, and awkward shooting positions. Which often means:
- shooting positions will be jacked up
- you won't be able to break your shots at the natural respiratory pause
- natural point of aim will be difficult to obtain
So...you have to do your best to obtain the best possible (i.e. most stable) position, try to minimally compromise NPA, deal with your breathing cycles in a reasonable manner -- but definitely maintain trigger control and be certain to follow through & spot your impacts.

Last weekend I competed in a rifle match where many stages required shooting from barricades and other props. Getting a stable gun position was often challenging for me. Time constraints were such that even with relative fast shooting (for me), I timed out on almost every stage. I have much to practice on.

The folks who developed a wide variety of shooting skills are a pleasure to watch, are an inspiration to try harder, and provide examples for improving technique.

Range estimation via a reticle can be an interesting skills exercise. But it's a dated concept. Laser range finders have all but made range estimation go the way of the dodo bird.

Range estimation is fairly accurate for large-ish targets at relatively close distances -- say no more than 400-500 yards. Modern bottle-necked rifle cartridges shoot with fairly flat trajectories at close distances, therefore a little bit of range error is no big deal.

Range estimation can be a slow and tedious process for small-ish targets at relatively long distances. Furthermore, the range estimation may not be that accurate. But we need really accurate ranges at longer distances and with smaller targets in order for our ballistics programs to put rounds on target.

Bottom line -- Mongo like laser range finders.

*****
A SCAR-17 with ball ammo will hit generous-sized steel targets, as long as the distance is reasonable. Even with match-grade ammo, SCAR-17 isn't a precision rifle. I know this from using one -- and observing others -- in a course held by Rifles Only. As the SCAR's barrel changes temperature, the accuracy challenges increase.

"It was so easy to hit out to 600 with the RPR that I stopped burning the ammo because it got a little boring."
It's good that the rifle system worked for you. That's a great confidence builder, and good feedback that things are working correctly. However, if you were getting bored by hitting targets, then your targets were too big -- given the shooting position, wind, and time constraints.

I have never cleaned a stage in competition or training, then thought "this is boring". Never have, doubt that I ever will. When I clean stages I try to remain focused, knowing that the next stages might produce strings of target misses.

For sure. They had a couple "know your limits" targets out at 600+ yards with decreasing sizes and the idea is to start at the larger one and stop before you think you can't hit the next smaller one. I didn't have time to engage it but that would definitely be tougher.

It also makes sense that in a dynamic/competition environment and/or with different positions you can't use PANTS for every shot, but have to adapt and overcome due to time constraints and different shooting positions. I have no illusions about this course preparing me at all for PRS competition or even hunting. But I figure it's good to start with the fundamentals/basics where it makes sense.

quote:

Originally posted by 1KPerDay:
It also makes sense that in a dynamic/competition environment and/or with different positions you can't use PANTS for every shot, but have to adapt and overcome due to time constraints and different shooting positions. I have no illusions about this course preparing me at all for PRS competition or even hunting. But I figure it's good to start with the fundamentals/basics where it makes sense.

Always stick to the fundamentals. Get them down and you will be pleasantly surprised how much they improve all aspects of shooting, including different shooting disciplines.

Since they covered natural respiratory pause did they spend any time on timing the trigger pull to your heartbeat?

quote:

Originally posted by SgtGold:
[D]id they spend any time on timing the trigger pull to your heartbeat?

Interesting that you ask that.
I have read exactly one book by a long range shooter (former military sniper, IIRC) who promoted that idea. After reading it, I made some attempts to follow that guidance, and found it impossible. Even in the prone I’m normally not aware of my heartbeat enough to really know what it’s doing, but when I concentrate on it (rather than on everything else I should be doing) the only way I could time my trigger pull to such short intervals would be to snatch at it—hardly conducive to good control.

Way back in my smallbore shooting days I used a tight sling above my left biceps and could feel and see the small effect of my heartbeat on my hold then, but it has no effect on my shooting now that I can detect.

I am curious, though, what others think/do.