I really enjoyed a brief session with a rental MP5 full-auto a couple weeks ago. Man was that sweet!

In case I win tomorrow's PowerBall, I was fantasizing about how one could actually legally own something like that. I did some Google-searching and was not convinced I understood the options correctly. Terms like 'post 86 sample' and 'pre May' and 'no law letter'....my head started spinning.

So, two questions to the brain trust. Ignoring two small details - cost and actually finding one - could an individual (not an FFL, not a LEO, not in the service) own and possess a full-auto MP5 and if so, what hoops are there to jump through to make all the powers that be happy - do you have to look for a certain type or vintage model, file certain papers, etc. ?

(I'll add a third detail to ignore....where to shoot it. I'm not sure my local range would let me shoot it there, even if it was totally legal.)

So it's a thought exercise for now. Though, if the PowerBall deities deem otherwise, one never knows.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts.

The short/easy answer is you can purchase any machine gun that was manufactured prior to 1986.
All it requires is:
1) money (a fair bit of it since supply is nowhere near the demand)
2) time (they're treated much like a suppressor or SBR in that you have to wait for the ATF to process your form4)


Edit to add:
The post 86 and law letter stuff is for vendors (FFL) who actually deal in this stuff and are authorized to buy the shiny new toys instead of the old ones that are left for us common folk.

Yep. Assuming no local ordances prevent you. Also the above federal stipulations need to be met.

A transferable MP5 is gonna bring a truckload of money and also be aware full auto is a great way to turn money into noise fast.

Easily done, just have to pay to play. I haven't looked lately but would say around $35k for a transferable MP5.

if legal in your state (think NC is ok)

find the MG you want,

if the MG is in the state you live in,
pay partial,
do form 4 in triplicate,
mail copy 1 & 2 with 2 fingerprint cards, and pic attached, and a check for $200 to the ATF address on the form,
mail part 3 to your local LEO
pay the rest when the Stamp comes back


if out of state,
pay all or partial,
have MG transferred to a SOT in your State,
once that paperwork is approved, and the MG gets to your SOT, start with the instate process above,

dealer to dealer have been not quite 60 days lately,

form 4's are now averaging 6 months or less mostly,,

make a copy of your stamp and put the original in a safe place,
carry the copy with the gun everywhere,

if you have to register it with the state (we have to in VA,) keep a copy of that as well, original in a safe place,,

and HK stuff can be had in a couple ways,

original HK,, very very pricey

sear gun or trigger pack (sear is registered, you install it in a host gun) is still pricey, but not as pricey as an original

few other options I am probably forgetting about

As far as shooting goes, some ranges (including a lot of gun clubs) have a stick up their asses about full autos, sometimes rightfully so. I was a member of a local gun club for over 10 years that had the whole tree up their asses. I finally dropped the membership. Our local State ranges allow full autos. A lot of indoor ranges around here allow full autos. Additionally, once you legally own a NFA full auto you have to ALWAYS have your paperwork copy on you. I keep copies in the case. Also, you will need to get permission from ATF to travel over state lines.

You can do a registered receiver, in the case of HK a trigger pack. Which you could put in SP-89s or other clones. Owning automatic weapons has a high entry cost, but also the cost of feeding shouldn't be ignored. The ammo down range moves a lot faster through magazines.

Owning automatic weapons is a sound investment, until legislation is changed, if it ever is.

I haven't kept up, but a proper Mp5 used to be about $15,000, with variance on condition and type. Whether it was a clone with a trigger pack or an actual HK, etc.

As far as buying guns for investment, automatic weapons are the only sure bet.

Transferable machinegun: this refers to a machinegun that may be owned by us "commoners" (i.e. not FFL/SOT, gov, LE...). This includes pre-1968 imported MGs (the 68 GCA banned imported title-2 for anything but dealers, LE, gov) and domestically manufactured or domestically converted MGs that were in the NFA registry prior to May 19, 1986. These are very expensive and continually climb year to year because the supply is fixed and demand is high.

Pre-86 dealer sample aka "pre-may dealer sample", aka "pre-sample": This refers to a machinegun imported after the 1968 GCA, but prior to the Hughes Amendment effective date of May 19, 1986. These may only be owned by FFL/SOTs, LE, and gov. They are sought after because they may be kept after the dealer gives up his license. But they may only be sold to a FFL/SOT and can only be willed to an heir who is a FFL/SOT. They are typically about half the cost of a transferable MG.

Post-86 dealer sample aka "post-sample": these are any MG made or imported after may 19, 1986. These require a LE demo letter unless a 07/SOT is giving up his license and selling inventory to another 07/SOT.

You as an individual will need to look for a transferable. MP5 prices are all over the map, depending upon the type of conversion.

So what are your HK options? This is an overly simplistic breakdown but gives you an idea of what's available.
1. Registered sear or registered frame. These allow you to have one conversion device that can be swapped between different HK roller delay hosts. Bare sears and sears installed in a lower cost $28k - $30k. Registered frames that accept all factory FCG parts command about a 5-10% premium over sears.
2. Factory correct machinegun spec registered receiver dual pushpin conversion. At the time of conversion the gunsmith removed the semiauto shelf on the HK94 receiver, drilled the pushpin hole and (hopefully) installed the pushpin bushing and paddle mag release. These currently cost $38k - $42k.
3. Clip-on registered receiver mp5. This is where the unaltered semiauto receiver was incorrectly registered as the machinegun and a non-factory unregistered fullauto conversion sear was used. The sear in these is forever married to the receiver which was incorrectly registered. These are the least desirable IMO. Currently they seem to cost $22-27k.


This thread on HK Pro is by far the most comprehensive compilation of HK conversion devices:

http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-...-sears-housings.html

Thanks! This is very helpful, even though I did not win the Powerball. Hope springs eternal.

From the above, it appears here in NC I would need to go the trust route, find a 'transferable' beastie made and registered before 1986, pony up a boatload of cash, do the NFA Form 4 thing, and exercise patience.

quote:

Originally posted by joel9507:
Thanks! This is very helpful, even though I did not win the Powerball. Hope springs eternal.
From the above, it appears here in NC I would need to go the trust route, find a 'transferable' beastie made and registered before 1986, pony up a boatload of cash, do the NFA Form 4 thing, and exercise patience.

Why do you wish "to go the trust route"?

quote:

Alternatives for full-auto ownership?

You could buy a boat or an airplane.

quote:

Originally posted by joel9507:
Thanks! This is very helpful, even though I did not win the Powerball. Hope springs eternal.

From the above, it appears here in NC I would need to go the trust route, find a 'transferable' beastie made and registered before 1986, pony up a boatload of cash, do the NFA Form 4 thing, and exercise patience.

The law in NC re: MG ownership improved significantly a few years ago. You can own individually or in a trust/LLC/Corp.

Franklin armory is coming out with a binary trigger for HK. It fires on the pull of the trigger and on the release.

I have one in my MPX. It works great.

Might be a more realistic way to go.

I was going to suggest a binary trigger as well.

quote:

Originally posted by cas:

quote:

Alternatives for full-auto ownership?

You could buy a boat or an airplane.

LOL. Just imagine the outcry that would come from current MG owners if there was a serious attempt to repeal the NFA and bring prices back down to reality.

quote:

Originally posted by bigwagon:

quote:

Originally posted by cas:

quote:

Alternatives for full-auto ownership?

You could buy a boat or an airplane.

LOL. Just imagine the outcry that would come from current MG owners if there was a serious attempt to repeal the NFA and bring prices back down to reality.

as a MG owner, I would not mind a bit,,

I live in a non-NFA state. I bought a slidefire stock and having been a class3 years ago, it fires, in my opinion, almost as fast as the M16A1 I owned years ago. They claim a rate of 650rpm. They make models that fit AK's. Just a thought.

quote:

Originally posted by lyman:

quote:

Originally posted by bigwagon
LOL. Just imagine the outcry that would come from current MG owners if there was a serious attempt to repeal the NFA and bring prices back down to reality.

as a MG owner, I would not mind a bit,,

Bigwagon, in my experience this is a common sentiment heard from people who don't own MGs. Like Lyman, I'm a MG owner and I would CELEBRATE the day 922(o) was repealed and my collection was cut 1/10th of its value. Why? Because I could buy and/or register brand new transferable MGs. Read through the replies in this recent Subguns.com thread where this exact issue is discussed. It is worth mentioning that the Subguns.com NFA discussion forum has the largest number of posters who are actual MG owners as compared to other forums.

http://www.subguns.com/boards/mgmsg.cgi?read=876110

The bottom line: the vast majority of MG owners who I know (and I know a number) and the vast majority (like all) who posted in this topic on Subguns.com want repeal of 922(o).

Days of the 15K MP5 are long gone prices now run ~35K. Here is a link to the Machine Gun Price Guide on the MP5.
http://machinegunpriceguide.co...erman_subguns_0.html