quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:
For the money a QUALITY DI AR-15 can’t be beat…

The “for the money” element seems to pop into my mind more and more. These $2,000+ guns seem crazy when there are so many cheaper options. The legacy MCX I got super cheap because of its funky finish has been incredibly reliable with steel cased ammo, great handling/ light, fun to shoot and the ergonomics are great. Though I’m not a fan of the charging handle location, I’ll probably slowly sell off some of these other 5.56 guns as I can find used legacy MCX patrols to replace them with.

There is a long list of rifles I would get before either of those, most of them Cold War era and hit by the import ban. Or a ZM LR-300.

quote:

ZM LR-300

Those are cool.

I don't know why anyone would want a fleet of old MCX rifles; whatever tickles your pickle. Accomplice, do you have any one gun all "set-up" as your go-to rifle? A rifle you've trained a lot with, and have a more "intimate" knowledge of? What rifle is it?

I just sold off my 1st Gen MCX (still have a Virtus) and my Bren 805 in order to upgrade to an MCX LT and a Bren 2. I just think the newer ones are better and didn't see a reason to keep the early models around.

Fully agree with most of the others on the SCAR though. Have both a 16S and 17S and the 17S is my do-all SHTF "only-take-one" rifle. Cuz .308. I won't be humping 1000 rds over hill and dale.

Running and gunning for fun and games? KAC SR15 all day long. I love how light and handy it is, and it's dead reliable. I am pretty sick of cleaning ARs at this point though, despite all the fancy scrapers and such now available to make things easier.

I had a SCAR 16S and ACR, I sold the SCAR for several reasons.
The ACR, while not a precision rifle, is AR accurate. I don’t like the reciprocating charge handle, barrels are more AR compatible, factory short barrels are available as are custom built 300BO. Lastly, I’m not going to war.

The vast majority of people who buy non-ARs don’t hate ARs. They likely already have ARs, probably more than one, and are simply wanting something different for their collection. Comments like ARs are better guns, or better value for the money, don’t really apply to this situation.

quote:

Originally posted by Dwill104:
The vast majority of people who buy non-ARs don’t hate ARs. They likely already have ARs, probably more than one, and are simply wanting something different for their collection. Comments like ARs are better guns, or better value for the money, don’t really apply to this situation.

Thank you. It's kind of like saying "I want a summer driver, I'm down to a Camaro or Challenger" and everyone saying "Get a Corolla." You tell them that's your daily driver and they ignore it and go on and on about how awesome the Toyota is and how it will do everything you want without the associated reliability and maintenance problems and the whole point was that you wanted something that wasn't another Toyota because you have one. Pages of discussion filled with "Oh, but this one is a TRD! It's a work of art and not your average off-the-production-line Corolla!" Yeah, that's thrilling, but it's still not a Camaro.

The confusing thing to me, is Accomplice's desire not just for piston guns, but "cheap" piston guns. I think that's part of what's prompting mentions of nice DI rifles; people are confused as to why someone would want a bunch of average examples of one thing, when they apparently don't have or care to have a nice example of the staple thing. I agree with Smudge's assessment, but the thread has devolved from comparing a SCAR and HK416 to the OP saying he's stoked on collecting first generation MCX rifles; it's just a bit confusing.

quote:

they start around $400. In my mind, once you get over $800 in an AR, everything else looks like a better option to me.

This comment is wild, to me. Turd ARs start at $400; absolute turds. Once you get over $800, you're barely scratching the surface of a nice one. To say that you'd do better to get a piston gun at the $800 price point is an interesting notion. I have piston guns just for the sake of them; multiple SIG 55X and a TG36. I choose to collect them because they're neat and/or interesting (though certainly not cheap); a first gen MCX is neither of those things, to me. But, like I said: whatever tickles his pickle. I do not consider the piston guns I have, have had, or ones I don't/haven't, but have experienced, to be superior to a DI AR, and I wouldn't choose one over a DI AR, even if it was a SCAR, 416, or SPEAR LT.

If the OP is interested in ideas, I think the G36 is quite cool; it's unique in operation and construction. But, oops, it's not cheap. Perhaps the thread should be re-titled: "what are recommendations for guns with pistons and folding stocks under $1,200"; that would help participants help the OP.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: KSGM,

We start about picking one from 3 of the top tier piston guns that exist in the market space of a non DI 5.56 that takes Stanag mags and now we we are now discussing piece of s*** mcx version one guns. That's a pretty long freefall and the parachute might not open in time.

quote:

Originally posted by Dwill104:
The vast majority of people who buy non-ARs don’t hate ARs. They likely already have ARs, probably more than one, and are simply wanting something different for their collection. Comments like ARs are better guns, or better value for the money, don’t really apply to this situation.

yep

This thread is a perfect example of why we really could use some emoji buttons for “like, thumbs up, thumbs down, laugh” etc. so we don’t have to write an entire post that just agrees or disagrees with a comment someone else has made …

quote:

Lastly, I’m not going to war.

That's the funny thing about a lot of piston guns: they were designed to "go to war". They were designed to replace the M4; to be superior to it. Now, they are collector novelties, because they failed to beat-out an excellent rifle. I am part of the drift problem in this thread, but so is the OP.

In regards to the "like" function...

quote:

We start about picking one from 3 of the top tier piston guns that exist in the market space of a non DI 5.56 that takes Stanag mags and now we we are now discussing piece of s*** mcx version one guns. That's a pretty long freefall and the parachute might not open in time.

like

quote:

Originally posted by Dwill104:
The vast majority of people who buy non-ARs don’t hate ARs. They likely already have ARs, probably more than one, and are simply wanting something different for their collection. Comments like ARs are better guns, or better value for the money, don’t really apply to this situation.

Yep, good post. I like my ARs just fine, but I preferred the unique features of the SCAR so I transitioned to shooting them almost exclusively. Have run many high round count carbine classes with the SCARs and have really come to appreciate their reliability. Still have my ARs though as they are great rifles.

quote:

I preferred the unique features of the SCAR

What are they, in your opinion? Do you use a silencer on the SCAR? You would say that the SCAR is indeed a better rifle than the AR15? I'm not baiting any sort of trap; just curious as to each user's unique outlook. I had a SCAR in the past, and liked it just fine, but I sold it years ago, and haven't missed it. I never did shoot mine with a silencer.

An interesting hypothetical, for the piston gun debate: If HK416s could be had all day for $1600, would anyone not using one be a fool?

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:

quote:

I preferred the unique features of the SCAR

What are they, in your opinion? Do you use a silencer on the SCAR? You would say that the SCAR is indeed a better rifle than the AR15? I'm not baiting any sort of trap; just curious as to each user's unique outlook. I had a SCAR in the past, and liked it just fine, but I sold it years ago, and haven't missed it. I never did shoot mine with a silencer.

An interesting hypothetical, for the piston gun debate: If HK416s could be had all day for $1600, would anyone not using one be a fool?

-I like the side charging handle and prefer the taller receiver height. I'm pretty tall so the ergonomics of the more upright head position and easier to access charging handle work well for me.

-I like the modular design with OEM barrel assemblies that can be swapped out with 6 torx screws and with excellent POI repeatability.

-The gas system that can be easily tuned by swapping out a $5 gas control screw is awesome. Pretty much every OEM SCAR barrel is overgassed from the factory. I imagine that FN wanted to minimize the warranty returns from people who run cheap low-power ammo. Since most of the ammo I shoot is full power I've swapped out the GCS in all of my SCARs, it’s easy and makes a huge difference.

-With a properly tuned gas system the recoil impulse of the 16S is a bit slower and smoother than on any of my AR15s in 5.56 which makes a big difference on control during rapid fire.

-I do run suppressors on my SCARs and it's simple to flip the gas valve when installing/removing the suppressor. This is again where it's very valuable that the gas system can be tuned since some cans have much more back pressure than others.

-I actually use the folding stock when I am hiking with my 17S on hunts and want it to be more compact while climbing through the thicket.

-The extra BCG mass and longer cam pin groove help with reliability when the SCAR is hot, dirty, and low on lube. In high round count carbine classes it just runs and runs without me doing anything to it. DI rifles will keep running if the shooter keeps adding oil, but I’ve seen many choke if they weren't fed a constant diet of lube.

What I didn't like about the SCAR:
-The stock trigger is terrible, fixed with a Geissele trigger.

-The stock pistol grip is poor, fixed with a modified Magpul grip.

-If your rifle is overgassed, the heavier BCG mass of the SCAR will be impacting the rear plate and it will feel noticeably jumpier than a standard AR. This is fixed by swapping the GCS size.

-The OEM forend is short, wide, and very blocky feeling, and many of the aftermarket options add weight. This is fixed with the light and ergonomic forend upgrades that I developed.

-The SCAR is already not cheap, and it takes even more $$ to get it right.

The legacy MCX performed really well for me at a carbine class recently. The balance and handling were great and it ate up the steel cased ammo when others couldn’t get through a mag. The Virtus is nice but a lb heavier and the handling of the legacy model is one of the features that really stood out. I have multiple sons and I’m getting multiple examples of the platform as a SHTF precaution. If the Bren 2 digests steel cases ammo as well, it will probably be the other platform that I keep multiple examples of.

As far as if I have 1 gun fully sorted out, I have a few eotechs and don’t really load my guns up with accessories so highly reliable rifle+eotech+sling kind of equates to my set up for a go to gun. By that standard I have some.

All that said, I’m not sure gun choice matters as much. If a SHTF situation happens in my lifetime, a PSA DI AR would probably live longer than I would. I had long figured the form a SHTF scenario would most likely take would be the hybrid war with China turning kinetic, resulting in an EMP (90% of the US populace dies in a year).

But for the last couple of years, I have done data mining for one of the most prominent and well-respected UFO researchers and my take on all the scary possibilities has evolved. SHTF still likely manifests as widespread civil unrest following the collapse of govt but it may ultimately come about for other reasons. Those causes could make the duration of the chaos survivable for more people.

If the march towards disclosure continues, it may result in tumult from a resentful populace raging on / replacing govt for hiding key elements of our fundamental reality. If the power stays on and no strategic competitors take advantage of the chaos, maybe SHTF is survivable (and things like rifle choices may actually matter).

Brett B, thank you for the thorough and compelling breakdown. I referenced it in the current AR vs non-AR poll thread.

Accomplice, your preferences make more sense with a better understanding of your outlook and circumstances.

quote:

a PSA DI AR would probably live longer than I would

This is a sentiment I agree with, and one I often consider, when folks are talking about ammunition stockpiling. If dude A has 5000 rounds of ammo in his "SHTF stash", and dude B is bragging on his 8000 rounds, I can't help but wonder at the survivability of the amount/duration of engagements required to consume that much ammo. To survive 5000 rounds worth of firefights seems like a somewhat unlikely prospect.

As mentioned in any of the "KISS" or other bare necessity discussions on this, or any other, forum, you'd do well to consider applying white lights to your suite of equipped rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
Brett B, thank you for the thorough and compelling breakdown. I referenced it in the current AR vs non-AR poll thread.

Accomplice, your preferences make more sense with a better understanding of your outlook and circumstances.

quote:

a PSA DI AR would probably live longer than I would

This is a sentiment I agree with, and one I often consider, when folks are talking about ammunition stockpiling. If dude A has 5000 rounds of ammo in his "SHTF stash", and dude B is bragging on his 8000 rounds, I can't help but wonder at the survivability of the amount/duration of engagements required to consume that much ammo. To survive 5000 rounds worth of firefights seems like a somewhat unlikely prospect.

As mentioned in any of the "KISS" or other bare necessity discussions on this, or any other, forum, you'd do well to consider applying white lights to your suite of equipped rifles.

Good call. I have one surefire weapon light with QD mount and another SF light with cheap plastic mount but they haven’t made it out if the parts bin in a while. If I could move around 10 rifles out of the collection, I’d probably shift that $ to water purification and body armor for the family.

A handful of Streamlight Polytac flashlights and a roll of gorilla tape goes pretty far.

quote:

Originally posted by Accomplice:
If the Bren 2 digests steel cases ammo as well, it will probably be the other platform that I keep multiple examples of.

Only run a few mag's worth through mine so far, but no issues there. I don't anticipate any.

I guess I’m a MCX luddite. I still have my original MCX with the Kate Moss stock and it runs just fine. I sent it in for the bolt carrier recall, put in a Geissele MCX trigger, and put on a MI Mlok handguard. The only thing I don’t care for is that the gas block is behind the front edge of the top rail, and that makes getting the gas plug in and out for cleaning a bit more difficult than it should be.